#1  
Old 08-18-2021, 11:58 AM
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Default Timing chain?

How much play is acceptable in the chain? The left side is tight and the right side, I can push it in about 3/4 of an inch. I was not having any issues with it , I had to remove my cracked cover.
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  #2  
Old 08-18-2021, 12:49 PM
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I think you will find that most people will say that a new chain will have 1/2" of play where you have 3/4", so to me it's chain time!

While it's apart you can prove to yourself how many degrees the timing at the Dizzy may be retarded in relation to the Crank by taking of the cap and watching how the rotor sits still while you rock the Crank back and forth that 3/4".

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Old 08-18-2021, 12:56 PM
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IMHO I would not put a new chain in.

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Old 08-18-2021, 01:06 PM
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Default Time for a new chain.

As Steve25 pointed out, you can check the total amount of slop in the chain and your camshaft timing will be retarded 1/2 of that amount.

For example, if there is 15* of slop, your camshaft is running 7.5* retarded.
10* of slop = 5* retarded.

No matter how far it is stretched, it will definitely affect the engine performance in a negative way.

Good luck!

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Old 08-18-2021, 01:11 PM
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Thanks guys , Now I have to order a set.

Any suggestions?
Ames
Butler
Summit
Or are they all pretty much the same?

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Old 08-18-2021, 01:40 PM
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Doesn't matter so much where you buy as what you buy. If going roller chain again, I would only use a Cloyes true roller chain with either cast or billet gears. Both are fine for street use. There are some on this board who insist a flat link OE type chain is the only way to go. I have no idea who makes a good one now. If you currently have a Cloyes timing set on your engine, I have a few new chains only I can fix you up with for a bargain. Needs to be Cloyes sprockets to guarantee fit. PM me if interested.

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Old 08-18-2021, 01:41 PM
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Don't get a roller!
I don't have the info Here with me at work, but do a search for what Cliff ruggles uses.

Also whatever chain you get soak in a bath of light oil overnight.

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And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!
  #8  
Old 08-18-2021, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Meyer View Post
IMHO I would not put a new chain in.
He installs a new chain, drives a thousand miles, has a new chain that looks exactly like the old one.

The brand-new chain and gears (Genuine GM!) that I installed in my 454 boat engine had more slack in it than that.

I'm not saying a slack chain is good. I'm saying it's almost unavoidable, and probably won't get much worse than that for a long time. Degree the cam to compensate, and get on with life.

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Old 08-18-2021, 03:29 PM
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JUST purchased the $22 chain&gears from summit. I assume modern oil will help the chain survive 20,000 miles across the next 30 years.

  #10  
Old 08-18-2021, 04:18 PM
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Default Cloyes Street Billet roller set is just under $72 at Rockauto.

Plus you get 5% off by using one of the discount codes.

181623312165261592 expires October 10, 2021

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Old 08-18-2021, 10:06 PM
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In previous threads Cliff has posted that he used the Melling link belt set.

But, he also mentioned that in recent years the chain was chained & may not be as good as they use to be. IIRC, he said the Morse brand chain is the best one.

The Melling number is 3-350S. Price looks to be around $40 plus tax, from several vendors.

https://www.ebay.com/p/75561005

"...Engine Timing SetKIT 3-350S includes:

Engine Timing Chain - Part 350 - Quantity 1
Engine Timing Camshaft Sprocket - Part S305 - Quantity 1
Engine Timing Crankshaft Sprocket - Part S371 - Quantity 1..."

I always used the stock replacement TRW set. IIRC, the chain number was either C350 or TC350. Kept chains in stock, back then.

In recent years, I've bought the Cloyes C3007K stock replacement set. They're really cheap. Probably made in Mexico or China. MAY be the exact same parts that are in the stock Melling set. Don't know.

Best price I can find right now is $20.79 + tax, shipped, at Amazon. The pic is not correct. It actually looks like the pic of the Melling set. Has long slots in the cam gear, rather than round holes.(Unless they have changed since I bought a set less than 2 years ago)

https://www.amazon.com/Cloyes-C3007K.../dp/B000C0AJKY

Summit shows $22. Their pic is not of a Pontiac set.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-c-3007k

O'reilly & Advance Auto are showing $26 + tax.


Last edited by ponyakr; 08-18-2021 at 10:38 PM.
  #12  
Old 08-19-2021, 11:10 AM
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dhcarguy- I will buy your current timing chain setup if you get a new one.

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Old 08-20-2021, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
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dhcarguy- I will buy your current timing chain setup if you get a new one.
PM sent Bruce

  #14  
Old 08-22-2021, 08:09 AM
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Not giving advice or telling anyone what to do here, just educating folks.

We don't get much feedback on this sort of thing because these vehicles don't get a lot of miles put on them. Recently had another customer have problems with a double roller set, the higher end Rollmaster with billet sprockets, seamless chain, etc. It got loose enough the engine was noticeably down on power and making noise.

The "low" end roller chain in your pick is bottom of the barrel for that sort of thing, cast iron sprockets, etc. Even one of those should make it quite a ways in one of these engines. Even with that said I personally believe that the roller varieties start "slapping" around when they get loose and go out quicker at that point.

My own engines get factory 3/4" wide Morse type sets. I use and prefer earlier designs with the heat treated gears as shown in the picks but they are difficult to obtain these days. The most common variety currently available is from Melling shown in the second pick. I have some of those out there well over 15 years now with zero issues, but as mentioned you don't get reliable feedback in this areas as some folks are lucky to put 1000 miles on one of these cars in ten years so no matter what they used is probably still working even if it is stretched out some.

There are also performance advantages to factory link belt sets like constant tooth contact and smoother spark from the distributor, plus they are incredibly strong by design and why the factory used them for decades over any roller varieties. I know that is true because I've followed every engine built here on the dyno with a timing light for the first pull or two and any of them with double roller chains in them had the timing "bouncing" around some vs smooth with the link belt sets..........FWIW......
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Old 08-22-2021, 08:28 AM
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I've been using Cloye's roller sets for decades. Seem to hold up great to me.

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Old 08-22-2021, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff R View Post
Not giving advice or telling anyone what to do here, just educating folks.

We don't get much feedback on this sort of thing because these vehicles don't get a lot of miles put on them. Recently had another customer have problems with a double roller set, the higher end Rollmaster with billet sprockets, seamless chain, etc. It got loose enough the engine was noticeably down on power and making noise.

The "low" end roller chain in your pick is bottom of the barrel for that sort of thing, cast iron sprockets, etc. Even one of those should make it quite a ways in one of these engines. Even with that said I personally believe that the roller varieties start "slapping" around when they get loose and go out quicker at that point.

My own engines get factory 3/4" wide Morse type sets. I use and prefer earlier designs with the heat treated gears as shown in the picks but they are difficult to obtain these days. The most common variety currently available is from Melling shown in the second pick. I have some of those out there well over 15 years now with zero issues, but as mentioned you don't get reliable feedback in this areas as some folks are lucky to put 1000 miles on one of these cars in ten years so no matter what they used is probably still working even if it is stretched out some.

There are also performance advantages to factory link belt sets like constant tooth contact and smoother spark from the distributor, plus they are incredibly strong by design and why the factory used them for decades over any roller varieties. I know that is true because I've followed every engine built here on the dyno with a timing light for the first pull or two and any of them with double roller chains in them had the timing "bouncing" around some vs smooth with the link belt sets..........FWIW......
Thanks Cliff
I went with one just like in your 2nd picture, But it is from Cloyes.

Dave

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Old 08-22-2021, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhcarguy View Post
How much play is acceptable in the chain? The left side is tight and the right side, I can push it in about 3/4 of an inch. I was not having any issues with it , I had to remove my cracked cover.
Thanks to everyone for taking the time to help.

Dave

  #18  
Old 08-22-2021, 09:23 AM
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Those seem to be the most common these days. I had another customer recently install one to replace his Rollmaster and it said MORSE USA right on the chain, so good news there.....

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Old 08-22-2021, 09:50 AM
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Personal preference is the Cloyes true roller, especially if you choose not to degree. I have found they are consistently in the <2 degrees off over the years. And, I have run them to 100k miles without excessive slop.

I like the link chains, but rarely do they come with multiple keyway sprockets, requiring offset keys. The link setups I've found to be all over the board when you degree, some being way off.

Interestingly enough, I have also noted over the years that manual trans cars tend to stretch the chains at a faster rate than auto cars. Because of this, you may want to use a link setup if you have a manual car.


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Old 08-22-2021, 09:55 AM
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The great Smoky Yunic wrote that the stock Chevy/ Morse chains when they used them would last thru a 500 mile 7500 rpm race without issue, but that’s when they would replace them.

When used in a hot part time use street motor with far less spring pressure and far less constant rpm that should equate to like 25,000 miles to me!

The converter in a auto trans set up greatly cushion’s drivetrain shock from getting back into the crank and then being transferred into the Cam it would seem.

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And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!
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