#81  
Old 04-21-2014, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom McQueen View Post
I am going thru the specifying phase right now on a pair of billet turbo's for my 555. Since its only a street car I know the compressor side. 72mm. Plenty of power available from twin 72's.

But there is still some thought being put into the turbine side as to the best size. 83mm or 87mm in a 1.3 A/R stainless housing that uses a V-band mount.

And the primary pipe on the turbo headers will only be 2". On a N/A motor, a 555 would be at least 2.250. So big difference there.
I thought you were doing a Procharger on your build. Any idea when you might get that killer suspension that you have mated with an equally impressive engine?

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Last edited by quick67bird; 04-21-2014 at 07:13 PM.
  #82  
Old 04-21-2014, 10:15 PM
Tom McQueen Tom McQueen is offline
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I thought you were doing a Procharger on your build. Any idea when you might get that killer suspension that you have mated with an equally impressive engine?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dont want to hi-jack this thread, but I guess I can make it official. Sold the Procharger (actually selling). The custom 4 link/watts is all installed.
And in a lame attempt to keep on subject, my C/R is 8.95:1.

  #83  
Old 04-22-2014, 06:19 PM
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dont want to hi-jack this thread, but I guess I can make it official. Sold the Procharger (actually selling). The custom 4 link/watts is all installed.
And in a lame attempt to keep on subject, my C/R is 8.95:1.
It still sounds like it is going to be a monster when you get it finished. Keep us updated on your progress.

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  #84  
Old 01-02-2016, 10:09 PM
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With all the turbo builds that are going on now I that I would bring this back up. Any updates on any of the builds mentioned here?

  #85  
Old 01-21-2017, 08:25 PM
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Ok I am ready to buy a turbo now that I bought a set of turbo manifolds that Jeff Palazzo/turbo69bird used to sell.

My combo is based off a long block Ken Keefer built for me.

It is a 70 455 block bored to 4.185 bore
SRP flat top forged pistons
Block is zero decked
Calculated compression ratio is 11.44-1
4 Bolt main caps
filled to the bottom of the freeze plugs
4.21 N crank

The heads are KRE 74cc Dports with the following flow
lift......Intake......Exhaust.....%
100....77.1..........62.6.........81.1
200....150.6.........114.6........76
300....204.9.........152.9........74.6
400....250...........177.9........71.1
500....288.2.........200.3........69.5
600....319.1.........226.6........71
700....336.8.........239.7........70.5

I would like to go with EFI, but may have to start with a blow thru carb. I do have a Victor EFI intake and fuel rails, but I would need injectors, throttle body, and then the software and I am sure there is more I will need for the conversion as well.

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  #86  
Old 01-21-2017, 08:27 PM
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If anyone on the board is a dealer let me know as I don't mind buying from a fellow member, but at the same time since this will be my first turbo build I am not looking for an all-out race turbo.

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  #87  
Old 01-21-2017, 09:05 PM
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A Turbo and a engine with 11.44 compression ratio is not going to be happy or live very long with even low boost.
You should think about swapping out the 11.44 to 1 pistons for some 8.75 to 1 pistons.

The lower compression ratio being needed, in that once you experience boost, you WILL turn the boost screw up.
There are several on the PY board that will testify to that statement.

Tom V.

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  #88  
Old 01-21-2017, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
A Turbo and a engine with 11.44 compression ratio is not going to be happy or live very long with even low boost.
You should think about swapping out the 11.44 to 1 pistons for some 8.75 to 1 pistons.

The lower compression ratio being needed, in that once you experience boost, you WILL turn the boost screw up.
There are several on the PY board that will testify to that statement.

Tom V.
Thanks for responding Tom. I know you are a guru on this. What about adding Cometics .120 or .200 gaskets or will that be detrimental to quench? Will that compression and E85 be ok?

I know the new LT1 Corvettes are at 11.5-1 and I have seen a lot of those guys boosting those engines. How are they getting away with that? I know it seems like those engines would not work with boost. I have one of the new Corvettes and have resisted a supercharger because of how high the compression ratio is.

Thanks for all you help Tom in answering my silly questions, but I do want to learn.

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  #89  
Old 01-21-2017, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by quick67bird View Post
Thanks for responding Tom. I know you are a guru on this. What about adding Cometics .120 or .200 gaskets or will that be detrimental to quench? Will that compression and E85 be ok?

*** You are welcome! Adding thick gaskets will be detrimental for quench.
The .120" gasket with a piston configuration for 11.5 to 1 compression ratio will put you right into a high probability for unstable combustion.
The .200" gasket with a piston configuration for 11.5 to 1 compression ratio will put you right into a high probability for failing the head gasket with any boost at all. Not a good idea for either proposal. The best deal is to remove the pistons, get the right pistons for the application, and move on with the project.


I know the new LT1 Corvettes are at 11.5-1 and I have seen a lot of those guys boosting those engines. How are they getting away with that? I know it seems like those engines would not work with boost. I have one of the new Corvettes and have resisted a supercharger because of how high the compression ratio is.

*****Anyone who is boosting the new Corvettes is using methanol injection, E-85 fuel, and are running very low boost, less than 10 psi as the injectors/computer will not be happy trying to fuel the engine properly. The car is a beautiful vehicle and basically you are screwing up all of the factory engineering knowledge messing with it.

Thanks for all you help Tom in answering my silly questions, but I do want to learn.

*****You are not asking silly questions, you are asking the right questions before you tear into the project. I have a few questions too:

1) What are your actual goals for the project?
2) What is your budget to do the project properly? Pistons, different calibration, different fuel system, Fabrication work to properly mount the boost system under the hood. Upgrades to the other components once you start tearing up parts with the boosted power.
Hope this helps.

Tom V.

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  #90  
Old 01-22-2017, 12:28 AM
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Compression ratio does not matter, cylinder pressure does.

  #91  
Old 01-22-2017, 01:39 AM
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1) What are your actual goals for the project?

I drive the car on the street a bit to cruise nights. I used to street race a lot at one time, but where I live there is not too much competitive street racing happening. I am going to try and do some no prep racing and then there are some races that use a street racing type format being promoted up here that I would like to do. I am planning on an IA II build with a 4.25" bore and either a 4" or 4.25" stroke crank in the next year or 2. I got a deal on some Ross 42 cc dish pistons that I am planning on using for that build. I was trying to use what I had until I got my aftermarket block. Kind of trying to use this engine as a learning platform.

2) What is your budget to do the project properly? Pistons, different calibration, different fuel system, Fabrication work to properly mount the boost system under the hood. Upgrades to the other components once you start tearing up parts with the boosted power.

While I do not have an unlimited budget I do have a good amount I can spend. Depending on the price of some parts I may have to save money, but I probably have $5,000 available right now.

I have a nice set of turbo headers that were built by Jeff and they are set up for a single turbo, but I could probably modify them by cutting the driver side header and welding a T6 and a wastegate flange on it. I could buy more pistons for this engine, but will probably wait until I got an aftermarket block. I will probably go ahead and use my NOS system for this engine if it looks like the turbo deal is not feasible.

I have the ability to fabricate what I need with all the welders I have. I am a Millwright by trade so it I do a lot of fabrication. I have a pretty beefy 12 bolt rear end for my car, but I would like to get a Rossler transmission if I could. I do have a nice turbo 400 now, but I am sure that will only last so long once I start really building HP. The car has a 10 point cage in it, but it will only cert to 8.50s since as it is mild steel.

I hope this in not too bad of a read. Let me know if you need any more information.

Thank you,

Robert



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  #92  
Old 01-22-2017, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Quinton View Post
Compression ratio does not matter, cylinder pressure does.
Agree, Aaron BUT. How about you post up some piston specs (for the typical Pontiac buyer) from any catalog that shows a CYLINDER PRESSURE SPEC for the piston vs the Advertised Compression Ratio spec (typically advertised in the paperwork). Also post up the other specs: Camshaft specs, camshaft lobe positions, variable or fixed camshaft phasing, .................................................. ........................... Pressure sensors you used to take the readings Kistler or others.

Also post up the new slang words used around the local Drive-In:
"My Pressure per Crank Angle Degree is bigger than your Pressure per Crank Angle Degree."

Much more useful for the average first time Boosted Engine Guy to say:

Charlie66 has a 8.75 to 1 Compression Ratio engine with XXX Turbo Camshaft and YYY volume cylinder heads, with ZZZ head gasket and BBB dish volume in his pistons and can make 750 hp with a 194 cid Pontiac engine at 35 psi of boost pressure.

How about we have a vote (poll) on which way is more useful for the typical Boost Guy.

Tom V.

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  #93  
Old 01-22-2017, 05:35 PM
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Type of fuel appears to be e85. But even if pump gas you are probably best off with a conservative compression ratio. Keep in mind boost psi and charge temp greatly affects what ratio you can run safely.

Pump gas under 8.5:1 with iron heads 9.5:1 with aluminum heads can be safe if you arent going for 30+ pounds of boost. At lower boost levels you may be able to run higher compression than this and many do.

E85 allows more compression. See quite a few on YBs forum pushing 10:1 or more with aluminum heads. Personally I'd rather turn compression down and run higher boost.
Transient response and spool up are a reason some opt for higher compression but smart turbine selection and cam choices can accomplish the same thing.

If you are doing a motor in the future and want to run your current signature engine with a turbo or two you have some options. Instead of buying dished pistons just find some large chamber 455 heads(115-124 cc) and put decent valves and stiffer springs and good gaskets. A single S475 for now and add a second one on the new motor. I suggest a good a/w intercooler now and re-use it later.

Your new motor...4.25 bore or thereabouts will hold gaskets better than larger bore. Stroke... 4" with 4.25 bore = 454... 4"x4.255=455... 4.25 x 4.25 = @482 tough call.

I think you should start a new thread ..."Build my motors"


Yes even with stockish heads a single s475 is going faster than your present combo.

  #94  
Old 01-22-2017, 08:48 PM
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Thanks, Bruce that is a lot of good information for thought. I think I am just going to use my nitrous for now and buy what I need for my aftermarket block as I go along. I really appreciate the help. I have been researching this subject quite a bit and I respect all of your opinions. When I get deep into the build I will be consulting Travis and Rodney.

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  #95  
Old 01-22-2017, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceWilkie View Post
At lower boost levels you may be able to run higher compression than this and many do.

E85 allows more compression. See quite a few on YBs forum pushing 10:1 or more with aluminum heads. Personally I'd rather turn compression down and run higher boost.
Transient response and spool up are a reason some opt for higher compression but smart turbine selection and cam choices can accomplish the same thing.
AGREE VERY MUCH WITH YOUR POST BRUCE!

1) A question asked often. How much power is a FULL POINT of compression worth in a real world application. (example 8.5 to 1 vs 9.5 to 1) Most experts say 3% on average.
So that means your 1000 hp engine gained 30 horsepower by going up a full point in compression or 15 horsepower when you go from say 8.75 to 9.25 to 1 compression ratio.
But now you find out the engine is sensitive to timing changes even with E-85 fuel.

2) Another rule of thumb is the boost world is that if you increase the mass flow thru the engine by 2 times you double the horsepower. So say your Pontiac makes an honest 500 hp
at 6500 rpm with some mass flow number. So you boost the engine to double the mass flow thru the engine and you make 1000 hp but at 5900 rpm vs 6500 rpm. Less stress on the engine components, a longer push on the piston, and the engine makes lots more torque at the lower rpm.

3) Little firecracker little bang! Big firecracker BIG bang.
Many people miss the fact that the lower compression ratio obviously means that there are more Cubic Centimeters in the combustion chamber to store fuel and air for the next combustion event. A Boost Guy told me one time, I would rather be a full point too low on compression ratio and be soft on the leave but make big power later on in the run vs being 1/4 of a point to high in compression ratio and hurt the engine.

Charlie has beat the crap out of his engine at high boost vs what many will ever run but always followed a few simple rules of thumb. Lower Compression Ratio, conservative timing, control of the combustion process using fuel and proper spark (EFI/ignition system) and a good match on the turbo.

Tom V.

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  #96  
Old 01-22-2017, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
How about we have a vote (poll) on which way is more useful for the typical Boost Guy.

Tom V.

MILLWRIGHTS ROCK!
Thanks, Tom. I enjoy the profession immensly. I enjoy all the fabrication that we get to do and like working through some of the challenging problems we get presented with. Some day I may use my degree, but for right now I enjoy the work I do too much.

After talking with you and Bruce I have decided to use my NOS for now and build an aftermarket block when they become available.

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  #97  
Old 01-22-2017, 09:28 PM
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When you talk to Rodney and Travis, (especially Travis) since he told me he has been so busy with his business work he has not talked to Rodney in 6 months, ask Travis about his 'current opinion' of the ideal cubic inch displacement of a Turbocharged Pontiac these days.
You might be surprised at his answer.

Tom V.

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  #98  
Old 01-30-2017, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
When you talk to Rodney and Travis, (especially Travis) since he told me he has been so busy with his business work he has not talked to Rodney in 6 months, ask Travis about his 'current opinion' of the ideal cubic inch displacement of a Turbocharged Pontiac these days.
You might be surprised at his answer.

Tom V.
Travis is the man

  #99  
Old 01-30-2017, 10:14 PM
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Travis is the man
Agree, Travis has brought a lot of skills to the Pontiac community over the years, for sure.
Fabrication, Engineering, Calibration skills, etc etc. And a really nice person to talk to.

Tom V.

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  #100  
Old 01-30-2017, 10:17 PM
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I have a call into Travis, but have not heard back from him yet. I will try to get a hold of Rodney as well. I think for this year I will be throwing my NOS system on the car and see what I can run with it.

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