[Jack Gifford]

Pontiac's intent with the valve guide "ports" to atmosphere (intakes only) was to reduce oil drawn into the chambers. These days, just plug them and run decent stem seals.

[azbirds]

Seems like those holes would allow dirt into the guide area. Going with new guides and stainless valves so that should seal the holes. My main concern has shifted to the oil pump pickup. Will something like the Moroso pickup work to get closer to the bottom of the pan?

[b-man]

Originally Posted by azbirds

Seems like those holes would allow dirt into the guide area. Going with new guides and stainless valves so that should seal the holes. My main concern has shifted to the oil pump pickup. Will something like the Moroso pickup work to get closer to the bottom of the pan?

That was what I'm planning on looking into, an aftermarket pickup that extends about an inch lower.

Just checked out 2 different Moroso pickups on the Summit website, they have 2 choices (8.50" & 9.75") but neither one matches the '59 pan depth of 7-7/8":http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mo...w/make/pontiac

Let us know if you come up with anything, I think using a later pump with the larger inlet pipe would be a big boost for reliability.

There's always the possibility of modding the Melling pump pickup too, maybe some creative bending combined with tilting it downward?

I don't want to be stuck with the older pump with the smaller pickup tube just because of the dropped pickup.

[Boostedbird]

Originally Posted by b-man

That was what I'm planning on looking into, an aftermarket pickup that extends about an inch lower.

Just checked out 2 different Moroso pickups on the Summit website, they have 2 choices (8.50" & 9.75") but neither one matches the '59 pan depth of 7-7/8":http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mo...w/make/pontiac

Let us know if you come up with anything, I think using a later pump with the larger inlet pipe would be a big boost for reliability.

There's always the possibility of modding the Melling pump pickup too, maybe some creative bending combined with tilting it downward?

I don't want to be stuck with the older pump with the smaller pickup tube just because of the dropped pickup.

Could you make a spacer to move the oil pump to whatever depth that you need, then use hardened steel rod to make a longer oil pump drive?

http://www.metalsdepot.com/products/...tml?page=a2rod

Maybe rod like this?

[b-man]

Rather than get into any complicated fabrication or pickup replacement, I think that simply rotating the pickup downward will be all that's really needed here.

I couldn't get the camera at the correct angle to read the measuring tape accurately in either picture, but they're both hanging down at about 7-3/4" from the pan rail.

I'll further adjust the tip of the fixed pickup so it's about 1/4" from the bottom of the pan. This matches up pretty close to where the original swinging pickup would be hanging down with no sludge in the pan, and at pretty much the same angle as well. The swinging pickup has a shield on the bottom that can actually touch the bottom of the pan, but the pickup screen is about 1/4" above the shield plate.

These older engines were cleverly designed to compensate for the heavy buildup of crud that accumulated at the bottom of the sump. Non-detergent oils and leaded gas created heavy deposits and the engineers planned to get around that with this design. The '59 pickup actually has a float inside it, I couldn't fully submerge it for cleaning without weighing it down.

[421-6speed]

I ran into the same issue when putting my 60 389 together. Like you I had the new melling pump and pickup and was worried about getting the pickup as close to the bottom of the pan as possibe and lay pretty flat. Then holding the two pumps with pickups side by side discovered that angling down the pickup on the new pump was the same as the original swing pump. Also as you mentioned the original pickup has a float so in essence with the pan at correct oil level the pickup did sit level and quite high above the bottom of the pan.

[421-6speed]

Forgot to mention I did install the pickup at the angled position as you have pictured.

[azbirds]

Great info! When I took this engine apart it already had the newer style pump. The man I'm building this for had it "rebuilt", but it developed a rod knock 2500 after. Turns out he didn't touch the heads, used the factory pistons and UN-machined crank and cam bearings!! He did put new rings in the highly tapered, and scored cylinders. It also had new rod and main bearings. It had an el cheapo cam, and a lobe was on its way out. He also had the nerve to say that the car must've been hot rodded!!

[Gary H]

Use a Canton pick-up. The Canton 15-400 pan is 8" deep. Get the pick-up for that pan and you should be good with the 59' pan's depth.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by Gary H

Use a Canton pick-up. The Canton 15-400 pan is 8" deep. Get the pick-up for that pan and you should be good with the 59' pan's depth.

Canton 15-401 pickup here:http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ct...w/make/pontiac

[Poncho60]

Probably very late to be making this post.....and no issue with anything at all, it's very interesting. Just curious in your selection of the 59 vs the 60 engine. Did you just want to "experience" the reverse cooling flow design...or? Seems like the strong block thing is about the same between the two but no cooling "tube" issues w the 60 design. Like I indicated, just curious. Thx for any comments.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by Poncho60

Probably very late to be making this post.....and no issue with anything at all, it's very interesting. Just curious in your selection of the 59 vs the 60 engine. Did you just want to "experience" the reverse cooling flow design...or? Seems like the strong block thing is about the same between the two but no cooling "tube" issues w the 60 design. Like I indicated, just curious. Thx for any comments.

A fellow H.A.M.B. forum member living here in SoCal noticed that I like Pontiacs from reading my posts.

He saw me post that I would have wanted the '59 389 that another fellow H.A.M.B. member living in Nebraska (Rocky389 on PY) had recently scrapped. I had previously posted (before the scrapping) that if he ever took a CA vacation to haul it along.....not likely of course.

So he sent me a PM asking if I wanted a '59 389. Told him I really didn't need one, but if his price was negotiable.....I'd consider buying it.

I was always kind of interested in owning one of the very first 389s because of the unique design features (reverse-cooling was a major point of interest) and the thick block casting but I never really pursued it.

Seller was willing to haggle and drop his price by a considerable amount so I bought it, even though I really don't have much space to store it. I picked it up only 20 miles away from me, distance and the ability to avoid any shipping costs other than a few bucks for gas was a huge factor.

Now I have new toy.

No solid plans for it yet, it's been a fun low-dollar winter project for me thus far.

I like Pontiacs.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Picked up my block Wednesday morning. First impression: HEAVY! Bill of ladding says 225lbs. Pallet weighed 15 lbs. 210 lbs sounds about right. My '72 400 blocks weighed in at 175llbs(if I remember correctly). Lifter bore walls and cylinder walls MUCH thicker than later production blocks. The cylinders showed very little wear (less that .001 -.002). It is odd not having a starter boss cast into the block, but the adapter will take care of that. In the next week or two, it will be off to Eddie Miller (of Drag Week fame) for baking, shot blasting and ultrasonic testing of the cylinder walls and decks. I think a 4.185 bore SHOULD be possible.

[b-man]

I put most of the cleaned-up parts back on the 389 so I can begin figuring out mounting it on a test stand that I'm trying to put together.

Starting to look more like a hot rod engine now with the Tri-Power intake perched on top. The thermostat housing shown here is from a 1965 Tri-Power, I also have 1964 and 1966 housings I can use depending on which way the radiator hose needs to go. I may even decide to search out a 1959 housing that has an engine lifting loop built into the casting.





I put the front cover and water pump back on temporarily so I could check out the fit of the water pump pulley I was able to acquire from fellow PY forum member Bruce Wilkie. Everything lines up just like it should.



Also acquired a 1959 distributor along with the pulley, just for the sake of having as many 1959 parts as possible on this engine. This old iron body distributor features an oiling cup, you add a few drops of motor oil to keep the upper distributor bushing lubed every 1,000 miles.



Distributor ID tag shows part # 1110943.

[b-man]

.....will be told here to show that you can use either the 90-degree or the angled spin-on filter adapter on the early '55 -'60 blocks.

The blue filter adapter is the 90-degree one used on B-body big Pontiacs and first-gen '67 -'69 F-body Firebirds. The angled filter adapter is used on all A-body GTO/Le Mans/Tempest and second-gen '70 -'81 F-body Firebirds.



Note that the 90-degree adapter has the oil sender coming straight out the side, while the angled adapter has it coming out towards the rear.



The angled adapter is shown here installed on the '59 block.



As you can see here it's a very close fit.



Same shot, but this time with the stick shift bellhousing in place. As you can see there's plenty of clearance between the filter and the bellhousing.



The only point of interference was the head of this bolt, if there is a lock washer underneath it it hits the filter. The answer is to either go without the washer or shave down the head of the bolt a little.



Here's the 90-degree adapter installed, there's tons of room between it and the engine block.





Side view of 90-degree adapter.



Side view of the angled adapter.

[b-man]

.....the test stand today.

First order of business was to liberate the engine from the engine stand. For those of you who aren't comfortable using a lifting plate, here's close to 700 pounds being supported by the four 5/16" carb studs on the 2-barrel intake.



Here's the main reason that these older blocks don't get used for many engine builds, the odd-ball '55-'60 bellhousing bolt pattern. This, along with the fact that the block doesn't mount the starter.



I attached my 1960 stick bellhousing so I can build the rear test stand mounts off of it. The '58-'60 stick bellhousings will accommodate the stronger and more modern stick transmissions.



To start with I used some 1.25" wide by .250" thick metal strap iron to locate the bellhousing approximately where I want it on the test stand.





There's plenty of clearance between the floor of the stand and the oil pan as well as the lowest hanging item, the road draft tube.



With the rear of the engine somewhat secure I can move on to the side engine mounting.

Here's why you never throw anything away made of steel that might be useful later on, a pair of camper hold downs that I almost sat at the curb for the scrappers.



After about 2 minutes with the Sawzall and I now have these, 2.50" wide by .375" thick material already bent very close to the shape I need.



They'll work out just perfect here.



The supports tuck in nicely to clear any type of exhaust that I might need to use.





After drilling a hole for a 1/2" bolt, they're now attached to the mounts and supporting the front of the engine.



I'll weld the bottoms of the support legs to the pieces of channel that were cut off from the camper hold downs, then bolt the channel to the floor of the test stand.



Now to do something about mounting the bellhousing properly, this certainly won't do as it now sits.



After some cutting and drilling using the same two pieces of material we're good now



All self-supporting and stable, even without doing any welding on the front supports. That's it for today.

[azbirds]

So the water pump pulley is painted engine color from the factory?

[b-man]

Originally Posted by azbirds

So the water pump pulley is painted engine color from the factory?

I doubt it, but I'm not sure.

Someone painted this one over some rust, the paint is not factory original.

[azbirds]

Thanks. I was thinking it would probably be black.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by azbirds

Thanks. I was thinking it would probably be black.

Me too, all the pics I've come up with from internet searches had the water pump pulley either black painted or what looks like silver cad plated.