[JSchmitz]

I recently bought some Butler Edelbrock D-port 290cfm 87cc heads for the below combination. I’ve been running the same long block since 1997. A week before I was going to put the new heads on, a cam lobe went flat. I tore the engine down and cleaned and inspected everything. All looks like new. I’m staying with a RAIV cam (New Melling). Trying some Crower cam saver hydraulic lifters. I would have liked to upgrade to roller. No funds at this time. Also, I’m afraid that I’m pushing my luck with stock rods, etc. So, the question is, where to time the new RAIV cam? I forgot to check for an advance key before I threw the old cam away. So, I’m not positive where it was timed before. The timing set was installed straight up. Should I install it at 109 degree ICL? I have a modest stall and gears. I’m terrified that it’s going to feel “soggy” down low with the bigger ports. Should I advance the cam a little?

1964 GTO post
'70 +.060" 455, w/TRW forged pistons, stock crank (ARP studs), and rods (w/ARP bolts)
'71 #96 d-ports, w/Ferrea "race" valves (light bowl and port work)
RAIV cam, w/1.65 Crower S.S. rollers
800 Q-jet
RPM intake
HEI Distributor
1-3/4" Doug’s headers
3" Pypes X, w/ dumps, 3” Pypes mufflers, & 2.5” Pypes tailpipes
400 turbo, w/13" Continental converter
3.23 cogs, in 12/10 bolt Olds posi rear, w/Southside lower arms
9" x 26" Hoosier slicks
Mallory 110, converted to bypass regulator
Car 3580# + me 175# = Race weight 3755#
Launch from 1000 rpm
Shift @ 5200 rpm
Idles @ 650rpm in gear w/ported vacuum
Best e.t. = 12.28, m.p.h. = 111

[Tom Vaught]

Who made the new RA-IV camshaft?
Was it Camshaft Machine Company/Melling Tool?

If I remember correctly those cams already had some cam advance built into the cam keyway.

More Info needed. You do not need a camshaft that would be installed with 8 degrees of advance.

Tom V.

[JSchmitz]

Tom,

It's a Melling piece. I'm going to degree it. I have to look again. I didn't see a cam card. I found a Crower one on-line. I would think it'd be very close.???

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

~109 ICL seems to be the status quo, from reading not experience.
Check for tight wrist pins, a good indicator of how much metal is embedded in pistons!
Cam should be fine with those heads, this is their cam for the combo , determine your compression ratio!
https://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/7157/10002/-1

[PDC]

I am about 99% sure that I have read more than one post from Cliff where he has said to install the RA-IV / 60919 at 109. If he does not see this thread and chime in, you might just shoot him a PM. I’ve also got Butler 290 cfm Edelbrock D-Ports with a similar FT cam (236/240 @ .050, .490/.507) and it feels plenty snappy with the 290 cfm heads. I was previously running unported 6X that had been milled down to 92cc. Depending on where you get your cam, you might decide that a couple hundred bucks for Nitriding is money well spent for ‘peace of mind’ - I know Comp offers the RA-IV grind in their ‘Factory Muscle’ line and they offer nitriding for (I recall) right around $200?

[Formulajones]

What's the compression ratio? I hope at least around 10:1

I'd install it around 108-109 and call it good enough. It should be ground on about 113 LSA so that will end up around 4-5 degrees advance.

The ports in the Edelbrock heads, even ported to 290 cfm aren't big at all, I wouldn't worry much about it.

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

~109 ICL seems to be the status quo, from reading not experience.
Check for tight wrist pins, a good indicator of how much metal is embedded in pistons!

Ok.

Wrist pins felt perfect. Only a trace of metal in the bottom of the pan. Filter, everything looked great. Only one lobe bad. Not terrible. I'm going to clean it up and pray for the best.

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by PDC

I am about 99% sure that I have read more than one post from Cliff where he has said to install the RA-IV / 60919 at 109. If he does not see this thread and chime in, you might just shoot him a PM. I’ve also got Butler 290 cfm Edelbrock D-Ports with a similar FT cam (236/240 @ .050, .490/.507) and it feels plenty snappy with the 290 cfm heads. I was previously running unported 6X that had been milled down to 92cc. Depending on where you get your cam, you might decide that a couple hundred bucks for Nitriding is money well spent for ‘peace of mind’ - I know Comp offers the RA-IV grind in their ‘Factory Muscle’ line and they offer nitriding for (I recall) right around $200?

Ok. I'll ask Cliff for his input. I'm glad to hear about your success! I already have the cam. Going with the standard Melling piece for now. That's what was in there forever.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Some Rhoads Vmax lifters with super lube option seem like viable insurance if you want adjustable low end and extra lube...

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

What's the compression ratio? I hope at least around 10:1

I'd install it around 108-109 and call it good enough. It should be ground on about 113 LSA so that will end up around 4-5 degrees advance.

The ports in the Edelbrock heads, even ported to 290 cfm aren't big at all, I wouldn't worry much about it.

I think it figured out at 10.25:1

The Crower card (Attached above) says 109. That's what I remember hearing a lot.

I can't wait to drive it with these heads!!!

If this thing eats itself up, I'll just accept it and start from scratch. Gonna roll the dice on the cleanup and pray. It's an old build anyway. Still pumped 165psi just like when it was built though!

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Pull the oil plugs, cam material likes to lay in the head oil return path and valley pockets from what I have found too.
Wish you luck!!

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

Some Rhoads Vmax lifters with super lube option seem like viable insurance if you want adjustable low end and extra lube...

I already Bought the Crower cam saver lifters. They have a tiny flat ground on the side. I like this strategy for extra oil on the lobe. Plus stepping up to better oil. Breaking in with Amsoil 30w break-in oil.

[PDC]

Originally Posted by JSchmitz

Ok. I'll ask Cliff for his input. I'm glad to hear about your success! I already have the cam. Going with the standard Melling piece for now. That's what was in there forever.

I bet you will be fine without nitriding. I’m somewhat surprised that you lost a lobe on the previous cam - I understand the ramps on the RA-IV grind are very ‘gentle’ and that the more aggressive / steeper ramps have a greater tendency toward failure. I like your idea of using the Crower Cam Saver Lifters - Ive never read or heard any complaints about them. That combo should be really, really strong. I just saw a magazine article that someone re-posted here a while back where Cliff’s 041 equipped 455 put out 500 hp with unported Kauffman D-Ports that flowed around 260. That cam will love those ported heads.

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

Pull the oil plugs, cam material likes to lay in the head oil return path and valley pockets from what I have found too.
Wish you luck!!

Already pulled all plugs and cleaned block, crank, thoroughly. Plus new heads are clean. Good advise though. Thanks!

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by PDC

I bet you will be fine without nitriding. I’m somewhat surprised that you lost a lobe on the previous cam - I understand the ramps on the RA-IV grind are very ‘gentle’ and that the more aggressive / steeper ramps have a greater tendency toward failure. I like your idea of using the Crower Cam Saver Lifters - Ive never read or heard any complaints about them. That combo should be really, really strong. I just saw a magazine article that someone re-posted here a while back where Cliff’s 041 equipped 455 put out 500 hp with unported Kauffman D-Ports that flowed around 260. That cam will love those ported heads.

I heard mixed opinions on nitriding cams. When I first read about it, it sounded good. Then I read an article that said it wasn't.

The cam was in service for 20+ years. I'd have to look at my records. I hate to admit, I did let it get a little low on oil. Then I had a pretty lengthy, kinda high speed, run on the highway. I think I may have starved the front of the cam. IDK.

I was looking at the lifters with the EDM hole in the face of the lifter for more oil. Then I found the Crower design. I like the groove in the side much better than a hole in the lifter face. So, we'll see...

I think it's gonna scream pretty good. Wasn't a slouch before with peanut ports. Lol! I saw a dyno sheet with very similar combo. It was around 512hp and 565tq! Sounds good to me!

Now I need to quit running my mouth and get back in the shop!

[Cliff R]

If you have worries about scrubbing lobes with flat cams send them out to be coated. They will come back looking like they are black chrome plated and have the lubricating properties of 5W-30 oil before any oil gets on them!

The RAIV camshaft is ground to have a 113.5LSA with the ICL at 112 degrees. The Crower 60919 comes in pretty close to that so I suspect they are just re-boxing CMC cams.

I street and track tested the Crower 60919 cam at 107ICL, 109, 111 and 113. It does NOT like 107ICL although it idled a little better and felt a tad snappier on the street at lower RPM's. At the track it slowed down, even in short times so it's not making as much power in the loaded RPM range despite regurgitated information folks put up on the NET about "advancing cams for more low end torque".

My 455 ran very close at 109 and 111 ICL but started to feel a bit "lazy" when I moved in to 113.

We've been setting them at 109 or as close to that number as practical and it seems to be a very good place to be with a stout 455 engine build......Cliff

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

If you have worries about scrubbing lobes with flat cams send them out to be coated. They will come back looking like they are black chrome plated and have the lubricating properties of 5W-30 oil before any oil gets on them!

The RAIV camshaft is ground to have a 113.5LSA with the ICL at 112 degrees. The Crower 60919 comes in pretty close to that so I suspect they are just re-boxing CMC cams.

I street and track tested the Crower 60919 cam at 107ICL, 109, 111 and 113. It does NOT like 107ICL although it idled a little better and felt a tad snappier on the street at lower RPM's. At the track it slowed down, even in short times so it's not making as much power in the loaded RPM range despite regurgitated information folks put up on the NET about "advancing cams for more low end torque".

My 455 ran very close at 109 and 111 ICL but started to feel a bit "lazy" when I moved in to 113.

We've been setting them at 109 or as close to that number as practical and it seems to be a very good place to be with a stout 455 engine build......Cliff

I think I'll stay with the plain cam for now. For future reference, What's the coating by whom?

Thanks for posting your results! I was thinking last night, "Didn't Cliff do testing at a bunch of different RAIV cam timings?". That's a huge help. Makes me feel a lot more certain.

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

If you have worries about scrubbing lobes with flat cams send them out to be coated. They will come back looking like they are black chrome plated and have the lubricating properties of 5W-30 oil before any oil gets on them!

The RAIV camshaft is ground to have a 113.5LSA with the ICL at 112 degrees. The Crower 60919 comes in pretty close to that so I suspect they are just re-boxing CMC cams.

I street and track tested the Crower 60919 cam at 107ICL, 109, 111 and 113. It does NOT like 107ICL although it idled a little better and felt a tad snappier on the street at lower RPM's. At the track it slowed down, even in short times so it's not making as much power in the loaded RPM range despite regurgitated information folks put up on the NET about "advancing cams for more low end torque".

My 455 ran very close at 109 and 111 ICL but started to feel a bit "lazy" when I moved in to 113.

We've been setting them at 109 or as close to that number as practical and it seems to be a very good place to be with a stout 455 engine build......Cliff

Was this testing done with the KRE D-ports?

[Jay S]

Where are places to send cams out to be coated? Rocky Rotalla mentioned a place to me in Chicago that does nitriding. I know compcams can do it in house when you order a cam, I imagine lunati can have comp do it too. Are there some options?

The last two crower 60919 cams we have bought now have had 112 lsa and different valve timings listed on the spec sheet than that spec sheet above. I have one I am checking later today. They seem to be more aggressive off the seat to than the 041 with a little narrower lsa. I had a melling spec-8 last summer I checked over. It sure looks like Crower fiddled with the specs some between that older spec sheet, which appears to be a 041 copy, and what they are selling right now. The crower looks more like a modern grind . Not that it matters for this since the cam asked about is a melling, but the old crower spec sheet posted is different than the one I have.

We install the 041 between 109 and 111. The last one we did took 2 degrees of advance to get to 111. I would go 109 on a 10:1 455 without the rhoads.
My 2 cents,
Jay

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Where are places to send cams out to be coated? Rocky Rotalla mentioned a place to me in Chicago that does nitriding. I know compcams can do it in house when you order a cam, I imagine lunati can have comp do it too. Are there some options?

The last two crower 60919 cams we have bought now have had 112 lsa and different valve timings listed on the spec sheet than that spec sheet above. I have one I am checking later today. They seem to be more aggressive off the seat to than the 041 with a little narrower lsa. I had a melling spec-8 last summer I checked over. It sure looks like Crower fiddled with the specs some between that older spec sheet, which appears to be a 041 copy, and what they are selling right now. The crower looks more like a modern grind . Not that it matters for this since the cam asked about is a melling, but the old crower spec sheet posted is different than the one I have.

We install the 041 between 109 and 111. The last one we did took 2 degrees of advance to get to 111. I would go 109 on a 10:1 455 without the rhoads.
My 2 cents,
Jay

Good information. 109 it is.