[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Funny thing is the Pontiac guys aren't alone in the don't put a LS in every old muscle car. Believe it or not there are some guys that own and admire the early malibu/chevelles/camaros, etc. aren't all that keen on replacing the SBC/BBC engines that the cars were born with, with a LS engine either. Pretty sure olds, and buick guys have the same tug o war internally too.

I know most people think/refer to an LS engine is a chevy, but it's really not, it is a true corporate engine that now is the official V8 of every brand GM has left since 1998.
Buick, Cadillac, and chevy, GMC all get the same corporate engine/engines, so it isn't a chevy engine It's what ford and chrysler did back in the 60s, went to one engine for every division.

I.E. there wasn't a 426 plymouth hemi, and a 426 dodge hemi, it was a 426 chrysler hemi. Same engine in both divisions.

You're right (did I just say that? )
You'll hear this stuff from different camps. I heard some of it even way back when I put the LS in my 72 Blazer before it became a thing. Didn't care. My truck, I'll do as I please. Least I was driving the thing every day and not sitting in a garage to stare at.
I did enough of that retro swap stuff that I just got a little tired of it. Doesn't mean I won't do another one some day, but don't care if I don't either. For several years now we've been very content daily driving classics with carbs and points and will probably stay that way. See no reason to change.

[HWYSTR455]

Was trying to stay out of this, but...

You can't compare a boneyard LS truck engine cost to a purpose-built Pontiac engine cost, far from apples to apples. You build a purpose-built LS, and you will see the cost is more than doing a Pontiac engine. By a lot.

Compare a Butler built crate Pontiac to something like a Mast Motorsports LS. You can't compare a Butler built Pontiac to a boneyard snatch or even a baseline GM crate engine, just completely different animals.

IF you could find 455 long blocks in the boneyards that are reasonably low milage, THEN the cost of swapping a comparable boneyard LS would certainly be more.

Also remember that torque is directly related to displacement, so potential for a large displacement engine making more power is a no-brainer.


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[JSchmitz]

To determine any course of action, you must first have a clearly defined goal. This is questionably still in the street section. Even though there's been debates about which is a better racing engine, etc. So what's the goal? Good street engine I would assume. I sold my heads, cam, and lifters and paid for most of the parts to convert my car to LS platform. I picked up a complete 5.3 with harness and computer for $400. That'll get me started. I can pick up a used 6.2, for around $3k, stab a cam in it, and be making 500ish HP. MUCH cheaper than making similar power from a traditional Pontiac. Torque is another story of course. Unless you have the parts laying around. The LS will cool easier, idle better, get better mileage, be 200# lighter, etc. Plus it'll have full computer engine management. It just suites my needs better at this point in my life.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by JSchmitz

To determine any course of action, you must first have a clearly defined goal. This is questionably still in the street section. Even though there's been debates about which is a better racing engine, etc. So what's the goal? Good street engine I would assume. I sold my heads, cam, and lifters and paid for most of the parts to convert my car to LS platform. I picked up a complete 5.3 with harness and computer for $400. That'll get me started. I can pick up a used 6.2, for around $3k, stab a cam in it, and be making 500ish HP. MUCH cheaper than making similar power from a traditional Pontiac. Torque is another story of course. Unless you have the parts laying around. The LS will cool easier, idle better, get better mileage, be 200# lighter, etc. Plus it'll have full computer engine management. It just suites my needs better at this point in my life.

Again, you are not building an LS from the ground up, so it's not apples to apples. I remember when 455s were in the boneyards for around the same cost. So you can't compare a boneyard engine build to a purpose built engine.

Do the math on building an LS from the ground up, tell me what that costs, then tell me you can't do the same with a Pontiac engine. For less even.

If you were going to build an LS engine from the ground up, what block would you choose? LSX, right? Well guess what, you can buy an IA2 or MR block for about the same or less.

Ask yourself this, if both engines cost the same, and the Pontiac engine has more NA power potential, which would you choose?


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[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Again, you are not building an LS from the ground up, so it's not apples to apples. I remember when 455s were in the boneyards for around the same cost. So you can't compare a boneyard engine build to a purpose built engine.

Do the math on building an LS from the ground up, tell me what that costs, then tell me you can't do the same with a Pontiac engine. For less even.

If you were going to build an LS engine from the ground up, what block would you choose? LSX, right? Well guess what, you can buy an IA2 or MR block for about the same or less.

Ask yourself this, if both engines cost the same, and the Pontiac engine has more NA power potential, which would you choose?


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For a street engine? I would choose neither an LSX or an IA2/MR block. I've been staring at high performance Pontiac parts for a long time. They are NOT cheap by any comparison.

This debate doesn't seem to have any boundaries. That's why I said there needs to be a defined goal. Until then, this debate will be like a canyon road forever.

[FrankieT/A]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Again, you are not building an LS from the ground up, so it's not apples to apples. I remember when 455s were in the boneyards for around the same cost. So you can't compare a boneyard engine build to a purpose built engine.

Do the math on building an LS from the ground up, tell me what that costs, then tell me you can't do the same with a Pontiac engine. For less even.

If you were going to build an LS engine from the ground up, what block would you choose? LSX, right? Well guess what, you can buy an IA2 or MR block for about the same or less.

Ask yourself this, if both engines cost the same, and the Pontiac engine has more NA power potential, which would you choose?

Now you're talking max effort. You're right as far as cost for each. But look at it this way; $3500 for an LSX block (454 cubes), $3500 for a rotating assembly. $7000 for LSX 454 short block. For the IA and rotating assembly the same, but you don't get the far superior architecture of the LS.

I have an LS in one of my cars, while I was doing it I met a guy with a shop that does LS and (True)Pontiac exclusively...I asked him what the difference would be between the 455 Pontiac and the LS, in my case 6.0. His response was, "same power just different". After my conversion was complete he was right. I equate it to 4 stroke dirt bike vs. a 2 stroke, both very capable.

The Pontiac has instant torque and runs out of steam by 5 or 6000 RPM while the LS has to be wound up. My LS build will rip your head off between 4000 and 7500 RPM. My 8000 RPM tach goes to places its never been before with Pontiac engine.

[HWYSTR455]

My point was just that IF you could get a running boneyard Pontiac engine, the cost factor would be out the window. Regardless if it's a street, race, etc purpose.

You just can't compare a boneyard engine cost to rebuilding any engine.

Here's a sample of what an LS purpose-built engine can cost, street, street/strip, road race, or drag:

https://www.mastmotorsports.com/coll...-built-engines

And there are 'pros' out there that do better engines, which of course, cost more.

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[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by FrankieT/A

Now you're talking max effort. You're right as far as cost for each. But look at it this way; $3500 for an LSX block (454 cubes), $3500 for a rotating assembly. $7000 for LSX 454 short block. For the IA and rotating assembly the same, but you don't get the far superior architecture of the LS.

I have an LS in one of my cars, while I was doing it I met a guy with a shop that does LS and (True)Pontiac exclusively...I asked him what the difference would be between the 455 Pontiac and the LS, in my case 6.0. His response was, "same power just different". After my conversion was complete he was right. I equate it to 4 stroke dirt bike vs. a 2 stroke, both very capable.

The Pontiac has instant torque and runs out of steam by 5 or 6000 RPM while the LS has to be wound up. My LS build will rip your head off between 4000 and 7500 RPM. My 8000 RPM tach goes to places its never been before with Pontiac engine.

Yep. They're all just fancy pumps. Lol! Define a goal and a budget and decide what works for you. I'm enjoying learning a new way of tuning etc. Having a blast! Can't wait to get this thing rolling. Then turn up the power knob.

[Formulajones]

You can absolutely compare. That's exactly what people are doing and why they are making these decisions.

They are going for what makes the most sense economically, that's what they are comparing.

It's not just Pontiac, it's any classic engine. Why would someone want to build a Pontiac, or a BBC or a BBF from the ground up and spend $10k or more when they can pluck an LS ready to run for chump change, do the swap, gain EFI and in many cases an overdrive at the same time. 9 times out of 10 they aren't building these LS engines from the ground up, they are dropped in and running as is. The cost is what you find the engine for, and the pieces needed to get it in the car and running.

That's what the comparison is and how people think that go this direction. The beauty of what makes this possible right now is the fact that these engines are still in bone yards with low enough miles, and sometimes even with a warranty, that it almost makes it a no brainer, way too easy. Can't do that with a Pontiac engine. Try finding one in a bone yard with low miles that's ready to go. This will continue to go on as long as LS engines are cheap and easy to find.

[JSchmitz]

I'll likely be going here after I get fully converted: https://paceperformance.com/i-239234...-assembly.html

Price shocked me at first. Seems better all the time! Plus "General Motors limited 2 year / 50,000 mile parts & labor warranty." Try and get that from a "Pro builder".

[Jay S]

I don’t have any issue at all with putting a LS is something. Ford, Mopar, Pontiac…I don’t care, your car, do what ever you want.

Just do us all a favor and take time to hide all the hideous coil packs, wiring looms, sensors, valve covers….not much on a LS looks nice stock. Maybe 1 in a 1000 LS swaps take time and make it look nice. Coil packs are probably the worst offenders, hide em with turbo piping, custom covers, I don’t care. While I agree the LS are great engine platforms, it is also one of the UGLIEST engine platforms. Seeing a 5.3 out of someone’s 2000 era pickup in a old muscle car is hard on the eyes. Last car show I attended someone had a stock looking and very beautiful 65 GTO convertible, with a stock looking ugly 5.3. Like looking at part human part machine cyborg. Hard on the eyes, would rather look at a oily 6 cylinder. That or leave the hood shut, and put LS badge’s on it…that works too. Lol

We seriously considered putting a LS in our 71 Chevelle. If I do another engine in it I would do a BBC or a Pontiac. Right now it has a pretty decent running 455 Olds. Until we looked at someone’s LS powered GTO I thought the LS was the direction to go. I just can’t do it, and I don’t have time to make it look nice. If someone else thinks it look nice, cool. Different tastes are also what make Hot rodding fun.

[HWYSTR455]

Now that's a better comparison, but the GM crate engines do have issues, lots a folks around me have complained about them. The non-LS ones too. But that's still a good baseline.

12,500 for that is a good deal, but you can still do that with a Pontiac engine for that money. And make more power.

I know people with factory stock cars and trucks with LS engines that have issues too, you never know what you're getting when you go to a boneyard. Point is, there's still risk.

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[Formulajones]

Almost every LS swap I saw at Goodguys last weekend (and there were 100's of them) were done in such a way to make them at least look a little bit easier on the eye's. They make so much stuff for these things now with fake valve covers, engine top covers, or nice aftermarket aluminum covers that look normal with coil pack relocation kits, etc.... some are done so well, sometimes you have to take a 2nd glance to make sure it's an LS engine you're looking at. Especially when they throw an intake and carb on it.

Even with that said, I still get a little tired of seeing an LS in just about anything you can imagine these days.

[i82much]

my big problem with this thread is that some people have the nerve to like things that i don’t like. wtf.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I know people with factory stock cars and trucks with LS engines that have issues too, you never know what you're getting when you go to a boneyard. Point is, there's still risk.

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The reality is that the risk is extremely low when buying an LS engine. Much lower than if you found a 50 year old classic car engine. That's just the way it is.

Besides, if you use a big name yard like I have done in the past, they'll warranty the engine and guarantee that it will at least start and run without issues, and if there is one, they'll swap it out for another. They won't do that with a 50 year old engine, and quite honestly they won't have any of those in the yard anyway.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by i82much

my big problem with this thread is that some people have the nerve to like things that i don’t like. wtf.

LOL

I know you're poking fun, but there are many who think that way. Makes me wonder how someone like that can even enjoy a hobby like this. They must be a blast to hang around at get togethers

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by i82much

my big problem with this thread is that some people have the nerve to like things that i don’t like. wtf.

YEAH! I only asked your opinion to give you a chance to agree with me! LOL!

I'll be adding these (Or similar):
https://www.holley.com/products/ls_p.../parts/241-181

[Formulajones]

Usually these conversations go a lot like this

https://youtu.be/2--CkDdAIlo

[Steve C.]

"hide all the hideous coil packs, wiring looms, sensors, valve covers….not much on a LS looks nice stock."

Agree. We were at a car show not long ago and there were two '69 Camaros side by side, both with some kind of newer LS type engine installed. I don't know the different types or numbers on these engines, no idea if they were the same. But one was clean looking under the hood, no coil packs, and related stuff mentioned here. The other one did and it looked 'junky' ! The appearance was night-and-day.


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[i82much]

what if we turned the problem on it’s head - instead of saying which engine should I stick in my Pontiac, let’s say I want to build a car with an LS engine - what car should I stick it in?

Maybe I could pick something newer that originally came with an LS engine, but that might limit you on the emissions side of things depending where you live? So you go with a classic Pontiac, you get a great looking car, you don’t have to worry about emissions, etc.

I’m not into LS swaps into old cars. But if you think about it from different perspectives, you can certainly see why people do it.