[wbnapier]

Originally Posted by MatthewKlein

Is iron cheaper to cast than aluminum?

Just from a quick google:
"Aluminum as raw material costs more than iron ore. But when it comes to casting aluminum vs cast iron components, casting aluminum components are cheaper. This is because the most convenient casting method is die casting."

You are wanting a cast iron head because it will be cheaper to produce or because you want it to look original?

You can sand cast aluminum. Die casting is more expensive, but more precise. My experience in this is based on ornamental castings in China which may or may not apply.

[b-man]

There’s really nothing worse than dealing with D-port headers during installation or removal.

Getting to the bolts on round-port heads is so much easier.

There is a market for both Tri-Y and 4-tube round-port headers with an extreme emphasis on ground clearance.

I’d be looking at volume high quality stainless headers for round-port aluminum head street cars, D-port as well for those who have chosen that route.

Stainless steel eliminates the need for expensive coatings that have a questionable service life. Easier to modify for any minor fitment issues, no more compromising your expensive coating job.

Running somewhat restrictive exhaust manifolds to avoid ground clearance and installation issues is fully understandable. Unfortunately these manifolds are negating some of the gains going to aluminum heads, it’s a shame to see so much power loss just to satisfy fit and ground clearance.

The market needs quality round-port and possibly D-port high ground clearance stainless 1-7/8” headers, cast iron heads not so much. The Tri-Y design is the clear winner in ground clearance and is great for the majority of street performance cars.

[Vroom_vroom]

Not to totally derail this but with the headers, has anyone switched to studs? Seems like it would be a much easier process for them.


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[b-man]

Originally Posted by Vroom_vroom

Not to totally derail this but with the headers, has anyone switched to studs? Seems like it would be a much easier process for them.

You’re never going to get the headers in with the studs sticking out of the heads, think about it. That’s why nobody does it that way.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by MatthewKlein

1 to 1.5 more compression would allow a more radical camshaft for the same octane fuel without sacrificing torque or engine vacuum.

You are missing the point. Build the same engine with aluminum and cast iron heads. You WILL have to run one to one and one half point higher compression in the engine with the aluminum heads to make the SAME power as the engine with the iron heads.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

This thread is getting some attention from other Pontiac people who don't post here often or at all. Just got off the phone after a lengthy conversation with Pete Woodruff. (Of Norwalk. Ames Performance Nationals fame). Some of you may not know that he has been an NHRA Technical Inspector for many years and is an expert on Stock and Super Stock classes. He has some important insights concerning this topic. Most important is NHRA racers who wish to run Pontiac engines are in great need for iron cylinder heads. So much so that some have had to leave our Tee Pee to race other brands of cars because good, unmodified cores are simply not available, period. These racers would need an iron replacement head that could be approved by NHRA for stock and super stock racing. This head MUST have the following features. 1. stock looking appearance
2. stock valve sizes 3. stock combustion chamber shape and size 4. stock runner volumes 5. straight spark plugs 6. D port exhaust.

What would be the market/advantage for a head like this? New castings with material and wall thickness. Ready to assemble and bolt on without machining. Material available for a CNC port job without worry of breakthrough. Legal for class racing in NHRA. Bolt on performance for power adder street cars. Iron block, Iron head, 10 head bolts = great sealing. Likely somewhat lower cost? Just something else to consider.

Why not round port, Ram Air II, IV, HO or SD? Pete says racers have found these engines fit in top classes only where competition is fierce. Due to already inflated HP ratings and factoring by NHRA, D-port Pontiac engines would be much more competitive.

Mike, you took the words right out of my mouth. While Edelbrock aluminum heads are legal in the Super Stock classes, they are.NOT legal in the Stock classes. In Stock class drag racing you MUST run the heads that were available from the factory the year your car was built, period. This is another place where an updated OE clone iron head would be beneficial.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

r

Good points. Castings might have to come from a foreign location, but in small runs, possibly a US foundry looking for work. As the economy contracts, US based business looks for smaller orders to fill the gaps while waiting for recovery and government/large orders. Agree making a piece of crap iron head is not solving a problem, just making a new one. Making an iron replacement for a very rare casting number or a round port head seems to be a non-starter. Taking a tiny market and splicing it up into a potential market of a couple hundred people would be death. If 10% of those folks bought 1 pair of heads, that's 40 heads total and probably would be less. Round port cars are valuable and most are not driven much. Owners are pretty locked into wanting OE vintage iron for the auction/show crowd and not really using the cars to race or drive much. The handful who are have the choice of OE or at least 3 round port options in aluminum. This is why a D-port "replacement" head is being discussed. In Ohio, at least, to get a pair of iron heads up to the flow rate of out of the box aluminum heads you are looking at $4000.00+. Taking core iron D-port iron heads and just refurbishing them back to their mediocre stock performance is at least, $1500.00. That's thermal clean/blast, 16 new guides, 16 new seats, screw-in studs, proper valve job, bowl clean. Proper resurfacing (no porting) Still left with 50-60 year old iron castings with internal erosion.

Just did a little research. EQ out of Chicago ( yep, EQ, not EC. Got the name mixed up with the company I used to purchase aircraft engine cylinders from) is selling their 305/350 Vortec cylinder heads for $640 per set. These are bare heads that are cast in New Zealand. Everyone I
have talked to about the EQ heads say the quality is great( actually better than the Mexico cast OE Vortec heads). Sand casting isn’t rocket science. One of the pilots I knew ran a foundry for the U.S. Navy. Al ( the pilot) told me all about the difference in sand casting and lost wax casting( known today as investment casting). From what he described once you have a casting prototype the main expense is in actually producing the molds.

[Bob Eiler]

If they would be round ports, I would be in for 2 pair. As I have yet to see any after market heads that are usable as sold, I would prefer semi-finished and install the guides, exhaust seats myself along with the valve job.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Each variable knocks out a chunk of the sales market.
You'd have to pick the strongest chunk and then lock in to that.

If you aim to the stock class racers - there goes the 280cfm sales pitch and the modern combustion chamber sales pitch.
You have to make them bone stock.
Thats a Loser

If you aim to the performance rebuilders , you lose the stock class racers.
Oh Well
Really & Truly the only Dport head in short supply is the 1968 #31 Ram1 head.
Those guys can get what they need from somewhere else, just maybe not in their same neighborhood or at a Upull-It anymore.

I'm guessing your 280cfm intake port is going to be based off a Ram4 intake port and require Ram4 gasket. No biggy

What is the Dport exhaust port going to flow ?
What is the ratio ? Is it optimal ?

Its going to cost the same to produce a Ram3 variant head as it will to produce a Ram4 variant head.

Okay , I need to phone a friend to see which of those I should buy - at the Same Price.
Give me a few extra minutes in case I need a 2nd or 3rd opinion.

Hello Sam , a guy has new Ram3 and new Ram4 heads , same price , which ones should I buy ?
Well ... All my Pontiac buddies are saying I can buy 4-6 sets of good Dport heads for what 1 set of Roundports will cost.
Case Closed

You aren't looking to sell to #s restorers , you are looking for mass market appeal.
You just created the missing link that has been missing for over 40 years.
I want roundports on Everything , the way it should have been from the start.

Affordable roundports (if that is even imaginable) would be a goose laying golden eggs.
Edelbrock was/is too greedy - they missed most of us by a mile.
Speedos have jumped up in price - they are going to miss hitting the majority of us too.

I don't even want aluminum heads - might consider them if they were about half of what their cost is.
maybe.

So you lose a few sales to the market who can't get long-branch roundport manifolds.
Okay , if that was such a strong market - the manifolds would have remained present.
Affordable version of heads will drive the exhaust manifold market upward and outward.
None of the aluminum heads have hit that nail.
History shows they never will.
aka what Olds heads sell for .... as example .

I think a 280cfm Dport with modern chambers and choice of cc's - could fly.
But the same thing in Roundports - Would Fly .
Would fly higher and further
Outsell all the Edelbrocks ever made 10:1 - at minimum
Completely different audience.

[Elarson]

KRE has the right marketing concept with their High Port heads. There's a basic casting and then a choice of CNC machining for different chamber volumes and different port flow. With 4 chamber sizes and 5 port sizes, there are 20 "off the shelf" head choices.

Eric

[scott70]

We're still waiting for certain iron exhaust manifolds....

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

You are missing the point. Build the same engine with aluminum and cast iron heads. You WILL have to run one to one and one half point higher compression in the engine with the aluminum heads to make the SAME power as the engine with the iron heads.

No you won't that myth has been busted. HotRod did the test on a SBC same everything but head material and zero difference was found.

[mgarblik]

72 posts so far and allot of excellent points made and brought out for discussion. As far as the mythical heads being legal for stock and super stock racers. Pete Woodruff feels strongly that NHRA would approve a SINGLE casting for those racers in both classes. Essentially a clone of the best of the D-Port offerings. There could be 3 combustion chamber volumes to match factory offerings from 1967-79 approx. Straight spark plugs a must, stock looking OE chamber shape a must, port volumes some agreed-to but near stock would be required. So these stipulations might turn off allot of potential buyers who wanted current aluminum head technology in a new iron head as I proposed in post #1. Again, not to upset anyone, but I still feel a round port iron head is even more dead in the water than a possible D-port one. Love round port heads and prefer them for obvious reasons. But there is tremendous push back by the people that want very specific castings. Casting numbers, dates within a several week window, specific differences for every year from 1968-1974. Couple that with the non-existence of exhaust manifolds and it's a giant loser, even to the most optimistic observer. Soooomany more D-port engines were made and still exist but with lousy heads. A new head would HAVE TO BE A SINGLE casting, single mold, single core package to satisfy as many potential customers as possible. That is the current puzzle to figure out. I agree they would be a hard sell if a buyer could expect the same performance as the lousy heads they removed. They, IMO must offer improved performance through better flow and combustion chamber design than stock. Since the combustion chambers were fully machined from the factory, possibly a stock and modern chamber could be machined from the same casting. Personally, I don't think a straight vs angle plug is a major factor. I don't have any science to back that up. Ports could be as-cast for NHRA and machined for general sales? Again, have to look at all the angles. Thanks everyone for all the input.

[Jay S]

Some very good points on both sides of this topic. I really can not imagine why a stock family sedan, pure stock , or contours pure stock numbers matching car owner would be interest in this at all. Get the heads the car came with and rebuilt them, and there is no worries about porting. Your ahead to rebuild the old heads.

My mention of the stealth looking head with identifier numbers was only to have the head look stock, and come with raised boss’s on the heads where the number would normally be. So when there becomes a CNC version of the head you can have the head ID number machined into the head. Only because part of the novelty of owning a Pontiac is having the identification number for your engine and year of the car. It isn’t a big deal, but part of what is missing on aftermarket heads for Pontiacs is they ALL scream out, look at me, I have aluminum heads. Other brands you can paint them and you can’t tell at all that they are aftermarket aluminum. It is a choice we don’t have for Pontiac’s.

Other brands can use some E heads for stock and super stock. It is very expensive to go that route because the port volumes are usually a lot more than stock was. If someone influential in the Pontiac world pushed the issue the bathtub chamber round port E head would not be very far from doing the same thing on a Pontiac.? Something I am missing there maybe? I think KRE and Edelbrock could have did that with their D ports if they would have went with an older chamber instead of their modern chambers. The case can definitely be made the if you were to due an iron d port head, it should have a OEM style chamber, plug location, stock valves and valve lay out.

Having the heads cast or machined off shore in the cheapest place possible would be extremely bad for the outcome.

As far as the guys wanting iron round ports or a focus on more available manifold or header options. I think aftermarket round port iron head needs to have the RA manifolds done along side it to make that work. D port exhaust on the center are a pain. No argument from me. All the D ports need subflange’s to move those center bolts further out like a round port. Beyond that, if these aftermarket D ports out flow round ports, is there something that round ports offer with are more desirable for most builds? There is a very vast difference in production numbers between round’s and D ports. I would think a reasonable priced high flowing iron d port, that checks most of the higher demand niche markets, at less than half the cost of most aluminum heads would have a fairly big market. But to navigate all those niche’s and ending up with a reasonable price product is asking a lot.

[tom s]

Has anyone that is close to the Butlers asked David what happened to the program?I remember they had a ad out about RA IV iron heads some years ago.Tom

[Formulas]

Originally Posted by slowbird

No you won't that myth has been busted. HotRod did the test on a SBC same everything but head material and zero difference was found.

That was one of the more eye opening episodes of engine masters

if i remember right alum had a edge under 4K rpms due to slower moving charge in a cooler intake tract then upper rpms near exactly the same power

their episode wrap up concluded the edge went to alum due to slightly more power in driving range and less weight

Again the exact same head only diff was material

.

[Formulajones]

I honestly don't care much about cost. If they could cast an iron round port head that resembled a factory head I'd be on board even if they cost as much as aluminum. Cost has never been the issue as far as I'm concerned, it's about the product itself. If it's what I'm looking for, I pay for it. If it's not, I look at other options. In fact, I'd even go as far to say if they did a nice iron casting of round ports they may even find they'll sell in the $2000-$3000+ range for those looking when you consider what an original casting is selling for these days, if you can find them, that then need another $1500 worth of machine work and parts on top of that. Makes those new castings at those prices look pretty good. A D-port head, not so much. Those would be on a completely different price scale.

As Jay mentioned, aluminum heads scream "look at me" and quite frankly, they could be cast to resemble an iron head if they really wanted to. Companies like Trick Flow do it for Chevrolets as just one example. The biggest problem is the tiny Pontiac market doesn't warrant the expense involved to do so. Same reason why the iron head idea that's been floating around for years never got off the ground.

[Elarson]

The Pontiac community is very much a "build it and they'll come" market as long as the pricing is moderate. Prices don't have to be claimer-engine cheap nor will most Pontiac people spend high-dollar Pro Mod sort of prices.

Look at blocks for instance. When Indian Adventures came out with the first aftermarket cast iron block, some detractors were quick to jump on the negative bandwagon and proclaim that factory blocks were all we needed. Fast forward to now and AllPontiac has 4 types of blocks, KRE has 3 and LSM will carve up a billet one for you.

So I'm cautiously optimistic that a cast iron aftermarket head market can be created.

Eric

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by slowbird

No you won't that myth has been busted. HotRod did the test on a SBC same everything but head material and zero difference was found.

Cite the date of the article. Hot Rod has made many assertions over the years that proved to be WRONG.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Some very good points on both sides of this topic. I really can not imagine why a stock family sedan, pure stock , or contours pure stock numbers matching car owner would be interest in this at all. Get the heads the car came with and rebuilt them, and there is no worries about porting. Your ahead to rebuild the old heads.

My mention of the stealth looking head with identifier numbers was only to have the head look stock, and come with raised boss’s on the heads where the number would normally be. So when there becomes a CNC version of the head you can have the head ID number machined into the head. Only because part of the novelty of owning a Pontiac is having the identification number for your engine and year of the car. It isn’t a big deal, but part of what is missing on aftermarket heads for Pontiacs is they ALL scream out, look at me, I have aluminum heads. Other brands you can paint them and you can’t tell at all that they are aftermarket aluminum. It is a choice we don’t have for Pontiac’s.

Other brands can use some E heads for stock and super stock. It is very expensive to go that route because the port volumes are usually a lot more than stock was. If someone influential in the Pontiac world pushed the issue the bathtub chamber round port E head would not be very far from doing the same thing on a Pontiac.? Something I am missing there maybe? I think KRE and Edelbrock could have did that with their D ports if they would have went with an older chamber instead of their modern chambers. The case can definitely be made the if you were to due an iron d port head, it should have a OEM style chamber, plug location, stock valves and valve lay out.

Having the heads cast or machined off shore in the cheapest place possible would be extremely bad for the outcome.

As far as the guys wanting iron round ports or a focus on more available manifold or header options. I think aftermarket round port iron head needs to have the RA manifolds done along side it to make that work. D port exhaust on the center are a pain. No argument from me. All the D ports need subflange’s to move those center bolts further out like a round port. Beyond that, if these aftermarket D ports out flow round ports, is there something that round ports offer with are more desirable for most builds? There is a very vast difference in production numbers between round’s and D ports. I would think a reasonable priced high flowing iron d port, that checks most of the higher demand niche markets, at less than half the cost of most aluminum heads would have a fairly big market. But to navigate all those niche’s and ending up with a reasonable price product is asking a lot.

I can think of several. You are assuming that the OE heads have never been subjected to a valve job, haven’t suffered coolant erosion and aren’t eaten up with corrosion and will
pass NDT. We ARE discussing cylinder heads that were last cast nearly FIFTY YEARS AGO. Ever attempted to salvage a pair of nearly FIFTY YEAR OLD cylinder heads? It isn’t fun or productive. A new OE “D” port clone head would give those who want to go NHRA Stock class racing an alternative to tracking down suitable AND usable cores. I don’t know where you live but here in the Ohio Valley ANYTHING Pontiac that isn’t absolutely garbage is becoming difficult to find or afford.