[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by 65madgoat

Is there really a demand for iron heads? With so many casting numbers, not like just one could be re-made to be a replica of an uber rare head set and actually sell, and just don't see the reason for an iron head. Heavy, holds heat, etc.

Lower heat rejection is WHY you have to run a point to point and a half higher compression ratios with aluminum heads verses iron heads. Heat IS horsepower….

[Formulabruce]

What casting would be replicated? Like a 12 or 13?
Have to then make intake decisions based on cross over if used on a 72 and up.
All the bolt holes? A original 70 head can't run newer power steering bracket set up.
Some things to nail down to expand the market so these would sell.

[b-man]

Pipe dream in my opinion.

I don’t see anyone with the capital to take on such a project finding it would be financially feasible. I would think casting and machining cast iron wouldn’t be any cheaper than aluminum.

Going to aluminum heads and blocks is a step forward, cast iron is a step backwards.

Aluminum blocks and heads are what will sell, cast iron not so much.

Guys going to LS platforms do it partially to get an affordable all aluminum engine. Coming up with an aluminum block that’s a little more affordable than what’s currently being offered might help but probably won’t happen due to the limited volume

Not enough of a market for an aftermarket cast iron head to encourage someone with deep pockets to take a chance on it. The Butlers thought about that once many years ago and I guess they thought better of it and decided not to pursue it.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

As many on the forum know, I have been begging for our vendors to consider an iron replacement head for our Pontiacs for about 15 years. This thread is to gauge interest in reference to the other thread running about "cast iron head porters" in our Pontiac world. I didn't want to clog up that thread with my ramblings. So this is my specific question: How many of you guys would consider buying an off the shelf NEW cast iron head. D port, stock valve locations, a couple different chamber volumes, peak flow out of the box 280 CFM on the intake side. Essentially a replacement iron head better than anything ever offered by PMD from the factory. Probably around $800.00 a pair bare. Maybe the time is finally right?

Mike , count me in!! $800 per set should be doable. Imagine a brand new set of heads instead of sunken valve seats from too many valve jobs, no worn out guides, no warped decks, no corroded water jackets…

[72projectbird]

If I'm switching heads, they're not gonna be stock irons. That goes for any engine platform, not just Pontiac.

The reduction of weight and resistance to detonation is more than enough for me to choose aluminum heads over irons.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by b-man

Pipe dream in my opinion.

I don’t see anyone with the capital to take on such a project finding it would be financially feasible. I would think casting and machining cast iron wouldn’t be any cheaper than aluminum.

Going to aluminum heads and blocks is a step forward, cast iron is a step backwards.

Aluminum blocks and heads are what will sell, cast iron not so much.

Guys going to LS platforms do it partially to get an affordable all aluminum engine. Coming up with an aluminum block that’s a little more affordable than what’s currently being offered might help but probably won’t happen due to the limited volume

Not enough of a market for an aftermarket cast iron head to encourage someone with deep pockets to take a chance on it. The Butlers thought about that once many years ago and I guess they thought better of it and decided not to pursue it.

Bart, with all due respect, BALDERDASH!! The vast majority of diesel engines STILL run iron heads. Ever heard of a 5.9 or 6.7 Cummins having head corrosion problems or head warping problems like the Nissan, GM and Ford diesel do? Many class in circle track racing require iron heads. Why iron? Lower heat rejection and far more durable. What aluminum does have over cast iron is malleability, lower weight and more easily repaired. It will also work harden to the point where it WILL crack without notice. A low product run of say 1,000 sets is certainly doable. IF there is no market for cast iron heads and blocks WHY is Dart still in business? WHY are there cast iron heads being cast for FE series Fords?

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

What casting would be replicated? Like a 12 or 13?
Have to then make intake decisions based on cross over if used on a 72 and up.
All the bolt holes? A original 70 head can't run newer power steering bracket set up.
Some things to nail down to expand the market so these would sell.

Bruce, my guess would be something similar to the 6X heads externally, but with improved ports .

[Skip Fix]

I remember at one Pontiac Southern Nationals in Dallas Butler had some he was trying to bring to market that never happened. I want to think round ports.

[michaelfind]

I would buy some

[JLMounce]

I think it will all come down to economics. If as stated the head would be delivered with flow numbers on par with the KRE and Edelobrock offerings and it undercuts that price. If the only sacrifice to saving a couple hundred bucks is 60 lbs of weight, I think the product would be viable.

If the margins are such that this head can't undercut the KRE and Edelobrock offering, then I don't think it has much of a market.

[MatthewKlein]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Lower heat rejection is WHY you have to run a point to point and a half higher compression ratios with aluminum heads verses iron heads. Heat IS horsepower….

1 to 1.5 more compression would allow a more radical camshaft for the same octane fuel without sacrificing torque or engine vacuum.

[Half-Inch Stud]

I would be keen on a repop iron head with 280 cfm out of the box. The trend i would be happy to start is to sell my PMD iron to the resto folks, perhaps bare and reuse my 1-piece valves and such on the new iron.

Iron is the right material for all-season reliability.

[b-man]

A new iron head that’s less expensive simply because of the material used isn’t gonna happen.

If you’re willing to pony up aluminum head money then maybe, but again any savvy businessman who is familiar with aftermarket Pontiac heads understands that 90+% of the potential buyers will want aluminum heads.

As much as I like the idea I don’t see it as being realistic to expect to see a relatively inexpensive 280 cfm iron Pontiac head to make it to market.

I don’t see why iron is needed for all season reliability, aluminum engines are pretty much dominant in today’s automobiles.

[77 TRASHCAN]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

I remember at one Pontiac Southern Nationals in Dallas Butler had some he was trying to bring to market that never happened. I want to think round ports.

I was there, also!!!

Jim's idea was ro reproduce RAIV heads with date codes that customers that were restorers, needed.
At one time Jim was a big time GTO restorer.
Several Pontiac parts companies, like Ames even had them in their catalog.

I think Vic took on Arnie's dare to start making their first (round port), at maybe 50 sets at a time.

The iron head deal is just a dream right now but...

I believe a 280-290 cfm "D" port head could be produced. If I had a finger in the deal, at all. I would try to get one of Jim Hand's 6X heads for a a pattern that could be ported more!!!

A slightly longer valve may be needed for the air flow. Pontiac valves are already in the heavy side, so what?
A serious Pontiac street enging isn't going to get twisted to 9000RPM's like a SBC CAN.

Just the fact that iron heads are less expensive t h an aluminum heads would help them sell.

These "dream" heads could have better ports (both sides), better chambers, and a better spark plug location AND none of these mods would change ANY of the parts needed to get a rebuilt engine going!!!

Yes, it's a big dream, especially with goofy manufacturing difficulties. I keep thinking of how well Jim Hand was able to make his wagon run withe O.E. modified parts. He was only limited by the production engineering that designed basic transportation engine parts!!!

[phil400]

What about any head cast iron or aluminum geared towards lower budget guys.

I mean a true entry level D-port heads with a 180~190cc intake runner and flow 230sh~240sh cfm(worh potential for more with porting) That could be bolted on using factory hardware instead of having to buy the special head bolts and provision for both style accessory brakes. Available in 72-87 cc chambers.



From everything I've read, rebuilding cast iron heads almost isn't worth it, but current aluminum heads are still out of reach for many and overkill for 400 cube builds.
Jmho

[b-man]

Want good Pontiac heads?

Then save your money and support the Pontiac people who have already taken the risk and invested in bringing aluminum heads of many different flavors to market.

If we keep supporting them they’ll have a chance of staying in business into the future.

Looking for a cheaper alternative new cast iron head to what’s already available is unrealistic in my opinion. As was already stated here there are plenty of iron heads waiting to be rebuilt and upgraded, you just have to understand that bringing them back to life with quality porting work and good parts isn’t cheap either and never has been.

['ol Pinion head]

Just like the last time, many years ago, that this topic came up, I'd buy a pair of reproduction high quality moderately better flowing cast iron round port heads, $1200-1400 max, no valves installed.

Musts:
-round port configuration
- 80cc to max of 87 cc chambers,
- external appearance, the outer edge below the valve cover area needs to look like OEM round port heads, not straight up and down like the available Edelbrocks & Soeedmasters.
- Don't need date codes.
Most RA4 heads & early 71 style 455 HO heads didn't even have a date code on them, disappeared when center head bolt hole under valve cover was machined

[Jay S]

I am in also. $800 for a pair is cheaper than a single speedmaster head.

No round ports, must be D ports. Would like raise boss’s that can have letter CNC’d to look halve way authentic as a stealth head. Would like to see 270 flow out of the box, 200 exhaust in a d port configuration.

Quite a few venues like pulling, circle track, and stock appearing drag racing aluminum heads are not allowed, and require iron heads. Like the Mopar 542 we built for F.A.S.T. racing, it can run Stage 4 or 5 Mopar performance heads and still be in the rules. Thicker castings than anything available OEM, room for huge max wedge ports. BBC and SBC both have options similar. Nothing like that available for a Pontiac in a a round port or a D.

The other thing is while there are plenty of D ports around to rebuild, you still end up with a 200 cfm head. Fewer and fewer porting options, then once ported you have a fortune in those iron heads.

I have several iron d ports combos that run on pump gas that are as high or higher than many peoples aluminum heads. Over 11:1 on 91 octane. I got there mostly by reconfiguring the ports with extensive port work, changing valves, increasing port volumes, and some chamber work.. People are quick to attribute the performance gains and raise in compression to a switch to aluminum heads. But if you had a modern designed chamber with high flowing ports I think generally most people would be shocked how close that would come to aluminum heads performance with an iron head for pump gas. The same thing shows up in other brands that have the same head offered in aluminum or iron. Pontiac has no such option.


.

[Goatracer1]

I think that a reasonably priced cast iron replacement head is a great idea for the enthusiast but a poor idea for the manufacturer. As much as I would like a set I don't think there is enough of a market for it to be profitable.

[Skip Fix]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

Just like the last time, many years ago, that this topic came up, I'd buy a pair of reproduction high quality moderately better flowing cast iron round port heads, $1200-1400 max, no valves installed.

Musts:
-round port configuration
- 80cc to max of 87 cc chambers,
- external appearance, the outer edge below the valve cover area needs to look like OEM round port heads, not straight up and down like the available Edelbrocks & Soeedmasters.
- Don't need date codes.
Most RA4 heads & early 71 style 455 HO heads didn't even have a date code on them, disappeared when center head bolt hole under valve cover was machined

What my bare never used RAIV SR 614s were in 1987!