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Old 11-08-2022, 08:27 PM
2BadZ 2BadZ is offline
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Default 79 Trans Am parked since 1996

I recently pulled out my 79 TA that has been parked since 1996 and not touched since then.
I intended to change the oil before I tried to get it going. The oil filter was getting pretty rusty and I couldn't get my wrench on it, so I drove a screwdriver through it and took it off. Some sludge but some clear oil as well.
My surprise came when I pulled the drain plug on the oil pan. Nothing came out except a small amount of brown dust. Drain plug had been in tight, no signs of rust on the oil pan, don't recall any oil where I had it parked. Moved it once into my garage several years ago, and into a car hauler a couple of years ago.

Some questions.

Any ideas on where the oil went? I poured a little fresh oil through and it came out with some debris in it.
Anything I could do to clean the engine without taking the oil pan out?
Anyone have any idea on what to expect if I do partially tear it down, after what was likely many years without any oil in the engine?
Any other ideas or thoughts will be appreciated.

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Old 11-08-2022, 08:46 PM
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Where the oil went?

You parked it in 1996 after draining the oil I suppose.

No matter what that engine is coming out for at the very least a partial teardown and inspection, no easy shortcuts on this.

If you live where it’s cold and moist during the winter there’s a good chance the entire crankcase has rusted up if all that came out of the drain plug opening was brown dust (rust?).

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Old 11-08-2022, 09:09 PM
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Take a coat hanger and carefully poke around through the drain hole.

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Old 11-08-2022, 09:57 PM
2BadZ 2BadZ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b-man View Post
Where the oil went?

You parked it in 1996 after draining the oil I suppose.

No matter what that engine is coming out for at the very least a partial teardown and inspection, no easy shortcuts on this.

If you live where it’s cold and moist during the winter there’s a good chance the entire crankcase has rusted up if all that came out of the drain plug opening was brown dust (rust?).
No, I didn't drain the oil when I parked it.

I had not expected to find this problem for sure. Might be parked a lot more years if I need to tear it down.

It's more like cold and cold during the winter, but I hear what you're saying. Might very well be as you say.

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Old 11-08-2022, 10:00 PM
2BadZ 2BadZ is offline
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Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN View Post
Take a coat hanger and carefully poke around through the drain hole.
I'll give it a try. I tried a 1/4" wood drill bit, but I can put a bit of a bend in a coat hanger.

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Old 11-08-2022, 10:32 PM
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The oil either leaked out or it solidified into sludge.

Poking around with a stiff wire should produce some sludge I would think.

The oil pan needs to come off. Engine removal makes the most sense.

One might imagine all the freeze plugs are likely in need of replacement as well, in order to access them all the engine needs to come out.

Bringing a car back to life after it has been sitting unused for a quarter century usually means replacing and cleaning many of the components in the fuel, braking and cooling systems as well.

Did that recently to 2 of mine, air cooled VW buses not Pontiacs. First was a 1956 panel bus sitting outside since 1992 and after 1-1/2 years of my spare time back on the road in 2019. The other was a 1966 pickup sitting inside since 1994 and resurrected in 2020 after the better part of a year getting it going again. Spent about 3 thousand dollars on each one repairing and replacing various things including new tires.

Good luck.

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Old 11-08-2022, 11:24 PM
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Was it sitting inside or outside?

I would dump a good amount of oil over both sides of rockers and let it drain right out. Maybe even some motor flush.

I wouldn’t try to turn it over yet. Pull the plugs and fill cylinder’s with marvel mystery oil and let it sit a week.

Then manually try to turn it over without plugs in. If it turns, crank it with no plugs (and fresh oil). Then drain it all again, put in fresh oil and crank again. You may want to add motor flush to help clean it out. Just crank it without plugs and don’t start it. See if oil flows through pushrods.

Finally put it all back together and try to start it. Run for 30-60 seconds and change oil and filter. Repeat this until the oil clears up.

The dust in the oil pan is concerning- hopefully it’s not too damaged.

I know others have said pull it, but if it might be damaged you have nothing to lose going through this process other than $200 in oil and filters.

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Old 11-09-2022, 12:16 AM
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If the pan has dirt, or rust in it, you're not going to be able to start it, and hope the oil filter keeps it out of the bearings. If the bypass valve opens, all that crap is going right into the crank, bearings, and lifters, ruining every internally lubed part as well as filling the oil galleys with abrasive crap that can only be removed by completely disassembling the engine. Even if the engine was good when parked, it likely will be junk by just running it any length of time.

Having run dirt track cars (Pontiacs exclusively) for many years, and seeing first hand how just a tiny bit of dirt grinds up engine parts in a very short time, I would never recommend starting any engine that you know has abrasive bits inside of it. As large as the pores are in a conventional oil filter, all the fine particles will pass right through it anyway. 40 microns is the usual size of the media pores in most full flow oil filters, 40 micron particles will score any internally lubed parts.

Pull the engine, and look at everything that is covered by tin, (pan, valve covers, and valley cover) to assess what your working with. Pontiac oil pans have been known to rust through, especially if it was ran in a road salt environment they rust from the outside in. If they have water in the pan, I have seen them rust from the inside out. A pinhole could easily empty the pan over decades.

Crossing your fingers and hoping the oil filter gets all the dirt, and retains it, is foolish in my opinion, and I turned wrenches for over 50 years for a living. Even if the oil filter is successful in catching every abrasive particle, there's a good chance the oil pump screen will plug up, and starve the engine anyway. I wouldn't give you a 10% chance that you'll be successful trying that scenario.

On a Trans Am, if the car sat outside, the hole in the hood will let water run down onto the valley cover where it pools, and will eventually rust a hole through the valley pan, letting water run into the oil pan. I've seen two Trans Ams with rust holes in the valley pans that were left outside for extended periods from rain water.

In the end it's your car, and your choice, you have to make the call.

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Old 11-09-2022, 12:20 AM
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Years ago I used kerosene to flush out a Triumph motorcycle engine that had been sitting awhile. It also had a 6 volt system. Flush worked well and got the engine running again. It was still running when I sold it later on back then. Probably better products out there today.

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Old 11-09-2022, 12:47 AM
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Just curious is this engine a 400 Pontiac or a 403 Oldsmobile?

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Old 11-09-2022, 01:11 AM
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Diesel or kerosene is a great solvent. Pour a gallon in it, and wait a few days. I work on school buses. I have a small pump up sprayer I use to decrease spots on engines that get slimed, works great!!!

I have seen first hand how usedotor oil can coagulate in an oil pan or in large truck oil drain pan. The oil pan has a perforated top (with dime sized holes in it)for the oil to drain into. The shop where I used to work, used this one and only drain pan with a pump in it to evacuate it.

The pan stopped functioning one day, so I took the top off and hand dipped the waste oil out, until nearly empty.

There were clumps of coagulation oil in the bottom of the pan as big as charcoal briquettes, and larger!!!

I know how important oil changes are. It sure made an impression on me. Being diesel engine oil likely made the situation worse.

I have seen negative things concerning crankcase flushes. Diesel or kerosene is all I'd use. You may want to do it more than once, wouldn't cost that much. Even with current high cost of diesel!!!

I was wondering about which make of engine, also!¡

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Old 11-09-2022, 01:52 AM
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These are all great points. I will say that the process I suggested I have only used on cars indoors.

Sirrotica is spot on- I changed the oil in my can am that sat outside for years and 8 quarts of water came out! Antifreeze was green, water that came out of the engine was clear. The pcv valve was either not in place or the grommet corroded, can’t remember.

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Old 11-09-2022, 02:25 AM
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Use a can 1 gallon of WD40 to flush it don’t start it just pour it in and let it sit. I just cleaned out a stick transmission this way last week . I tried everything castrol super clean, lestoil , a bunch of degreasers . Stuff was still caked up in there it had sat for 30 years.
I had that black sludge on my hands was into my skin . Sprayed some wd 40 on it like I had a 1000 times to clean my hands and bam it ran right off . So I sprayed it in the trans and it immediately loosened up everything
I was amazed at how good it worked inside the trans. . I mean nothing else was even touching it. I’d say diesel woukd do the same but idk this wd cut through this stuff so fast I think I’d go with that .

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Old 11-09-2022, 11:37 AM
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I had a friend that used diesel to clean sludged up motors. Maybe fill it up with diesel or some other solvent, let it sit for a couple days and repeat until it starts to come out clean. Then fill it up again, pull the distributor and use a priming tool to flush it through the system. Then with the dist out you could prime it with fresh oil before trying to crank it.

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Old 11-09-2022, 12:49 PM
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My GTO sat in an unheated garage from 78 - 2010 when I pulled the engine , pan even had a bunch of water from where the timing cover rotted through . It was still full of oil and zero rust or sludge anyplace .

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Old 11-09-2022, 02:46 PM
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If you have coolant in a pan, it has rust inhibitors in it, and will sit for a long period if time without rusting the metal. Rainwater/condensation has zero rust inhibitors in it and when mixed with used motor oil the sulfurs in the oil form sulfuric acid. We've all seen what sulfuric acid does to battery trays.

I've seen cars parked that were run with plain water in the oil parked, and sometimes within a year the oil filters will rust through the can and leak out. Of course the oil filter can is much thinner metal than the oil pan is, and will rust through much sooner. I've also seen dipsticks rust off on the ends when sitting with water in the pan. I've seen rainwater freeze inside of the pan and distort the pan quite a bit, same as a piece of cast iron breaks when water is left in an engine, and it freezes.

Lots of unusual things come into play when used oil, and water are mixed together inside of an engine, and it sits for extended periods. Just relaying some of the experiences I've had dealing with engines that have sat for years, and someone tries to start them. Sometimes you get lucky, and the engine seems to not have suffered catastrophic damage, sometimes it does. You're guessing, and hoping luck is on your side, I would rather lay eyes on it, and know for sure what's happened inside of an engine that has sat, and the oil has been contaminated.

I have a 455 that I rebuilt for a friends Trans Am, that also has rain water in it from sitting outside. I know what probably has happened inside of the engine and will be taken apart to see if the water got up to the crank and bearings. The oil pump being rusted up is one of my major concerns, if started with the gears unable to spin, it will possibly break the oil pump shaft when turned over. plus push all that corrosion inside of the pump right into the lubricated parts inside of the engine. I'm not going to rely on good luck to save me a little labor, not worth the chance of destroying a low mileage 455, that I rebuilt, that ran very good when parked.

The engine is still free when I put a socket on the dampener bolt, so it is a good engine. I won't chance starting until I look at all the insides of it, and clean it up from water sitting in the pan. I plan on putting it in my next project street car, an 84 GP.

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Old 11-09-2022, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b-man View Post
Where the oil went?

You parked it in 1996 after draining the oil I suppose.

No matter what that engine is coming out for at the very least a partial teardown and inspection, no easy shortcuts on this.

If you live where it’s cold and moist during the winter there’s a good chance the entire crankcase has rusted up if all that came out of the drain plug opening was brown dust (rust?).
This^^^100%. Also, if a Pontiac engine, likely the timing cover is rotten behind the pump. I have run into this on engines that sat 15-30 years.
I would at pull it to get the pan off and inspect and clean. The 'no oil' and 'debris comes out with new oil' are bright red flags. No Vice Grip Garage quickie revival on this one, IMO.

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Old 11-09-2022, 08:39 PM
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Thanks for all the replies. Certainly a fair bit of time and knowledge put into them, and they are very much appreciated.

I'll weigh out my options, make some comments on some of what I've read above, and answer some of the questions asked.

On the 79TA, I bought it new in 1979. I'm in Canada but it has never been winter driven. It was stored outdoors for at least half of the time since 1996. Throughout the 80s I made a number of changes to it. It original came with the 403 Olds, but at some point I switched it to a Pontiac 455 (maybe 73??) I still have that engine sitting around, separated into complete block, heads, and intake separate. Right now it has a 400 Pontiac in it, maybe 76 or 77. (It's been awhile)

I had been hoping to find oil in it, and hopefully get it started, before I started putting any money into it. Hope has changed.

What I managed to scrap out of it with a small wood bit was light tan in color and very fine, little bit of wind blowing under the car and it just seemed to blow away. Certainly that wasn't a heavy residue.

I had removed the plugs and sprayed Fluid Film into the cylinders, but never attempted to turn it over to this point. And turning it over is on hold for sure. I had a bottle of Mystery oil in hand at Canadian Tire, but not sure if I bought it or not. I had considered doing a kerosene or diesel flush, and considering I already ran a couple of litres of new oil down through each valve cover, I may do the flush anyway. I don't mind the waste of time and a few dollars, but wouldn't do it if there's a good reason not to and this point.

Not the end of the world I guess to pull the engine, I have a fairly heavy hydraulic engine hoist that I pulled a few BB Pontiac engines with back in the 80s. That might be as contaminated as the 400 though.

I'll look at all the areas suggested for rust out.

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Old 11-10-2022, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo69bird View Post
Use a can 1 gallon of WD40 to flush it don’t start it just pour it in and let it sit. I just cleaned out a stick transmission this way last week . I tried everything castrol super clean, lestoil , a bunch of degreasers . Stuff was still caked up in there it had sat for 30 years.
I had that black sludge on my hands was into my skin . Sprayed some wd 40 on it like I had a 1000 times to clean my hands and bam it ran right off . So I sprayed it in the trans and it immediately loosened up everything
I was amazed at how good it worked inside the trans. . I mean nothing else was even touching it. I’d say diesel woukd do the same but idk this wd cut through this stuff so fast I think I’d go with that .
I use WD40 in the shop where I work for initial hand cleaning also, when I get slimed.
I bought a medium can of WD40 yesterday. It was ,$10.00 plus tax.
WD40 works the same as diesel does for me. Diesel is cheaper, even with its currently sky rocketing price!!!

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Old 11-10-2022, 03:15 PM
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Man I’d take it the pan off at the least pop the valve covers and see how bad it looks in there.
Took a 327 fuelie apart last year after sitting for the last 40 years and good god it took a lot of sludge cleaning. Should have sent it out but the car value came into play.


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