#41  
Old 01-17-2023, 09:26 AM
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Wow, never knew how this carb would get all the carb guru's upset, Cliff, have a cup of coffee and relax LOL.

  #42  
Old 01-17-2023, 10:51 AM
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I'm not upset in the least.

When I see these threads I'm quickly reminded how many thousands of calls and emails I've had to the shop from folks who absolutely HATE the Edelbrock junk and despite spending another $100 on their tuning kit can't get it to work for chit no matter what they do.

Since I'm retired and have no dog in these fights I just call it like it is from decades of experience with these things.

Matter of fact we have one Edelbrock POS AFB clone in the family. My brother has one on his 1978 GMC grain hauling truck. It's powered by a 427 tall deck Chevy truck engine and over 20 years ago the governor controlled Holley took a crap on him. At the time the best viable replacement (it was harvest season and he needed it to work) was to buy an electric choke Edelbrock Performer series carb for it. It starts, runs and moves the truck around just like it's supposed to, sucks TONS of fuel but who's keeping track when you are hauling close to 50,000 pounds of grain with it. Every 2 to 3 years I get the unfortunate pleasure of having it dropped off here for a top gasket, new N/S assemblies and a complete accl pump assembly.....it was just in here about 4 months ago.

I stock a kit for it to save down time. Takes me about as long to get it back in service as it did to type this. It ends up here for one of two reasons, flooding and/or no pump shot. The soft silicone pump seal Edelbrock imports for those doesn't last long in this new fuel and the pump is a hoaky POS right to start with being made out of soft plastic and the pump end rotates all over the place like it's worn slam out even when they are NIB.

Anyhow, I put the info out there based on direct experience with these things. Like it, don't like, agree with it, don't agree with it, make a copy and use it for toilette paper I could really care less.........IF it helps someone along the way it was worth the effort.......

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Old 01-17-2023, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob in NH View Post
Wow, never knew how this carb would get all the carb guru's upset, Cliff, have a cup of coffee and relax LOL.

With some 40+ years of experience with these things you may learn the benefits of different carburetor designs.

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  #44  
Old 01-17-2023, 11:14 AM
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Kenth, I work or have worked on just about EVERYTHING here so my experiences go far beyond one or two different types of carburetors.

I also do a LOT of carburetors for small power equipment, generators, chain saws, string trimmers, garden tillers, etc. I also do quite a few tractor carburetors. I've also built a good many AFB (Webber) clones for Marine applications as they replaced the Quadrajet Marine carburetors in the mid 1990's.

I've dyno and track tested Edelbrock AFB and AVS clones and not impressed with them anyplace. Even with that said if you want a carb that will move your ride from point A to point B with relatively decent success till it takes a dump they are fine for that.

Here's the down and dirty with them. The brass floats sold for them are crap. I've had a 100 percent failure rate with them leaking and sinking to the bottom of the bowl. Some sink right away, others may be a few months or years but the soldered seams aren't that great or this new fuel is eating their lead freee solder, not sure.

They accl pumps are very poorly constructed and the seals are NOT ethanol compatible despite what they are advertising. They are a soft silicone type product, not an elostomer designed to be resistant to fuel with alcohol in it. I suspect the tips of the fuel inlet needles are also NOT made from a high quality flouroelostomer as they fail as well. Not nearly as often as the pump seals but I've had a good many of those carbs in here flooding from that issue.

Some "cobbling" is also involved with the installation. Most folks just hack saw the stock steel fuel line or slightly better cut it with a tubing cutter. Then they run 2-3' of rubber hose back around to the fuel inlet held in place with a couple of hose clamps, not taking care that it doesn't rub on something in it's path. NO ONE takes the time to even put a bulge on the cut steel line so it's not an engine fire in the making.

Since the factory calibrations aren't that great and they have some design flaws included the user ends up another $100 or so in one of Edelbrock tuning "kits" or at a minimum tuning parts to get them dialed in. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if they don't count on that happening as they get another nice bonus on each one they sell. On a good note the primary side is super easy to tune as the PP assemblies and primary metering rods/pp springs are easy to replace with a nice selection of two-stepped rods for that purpose.

They are square flange and often require an adapter or different intake. Edelbrock is counting on the latter to make another couple hundred bucks on the sale. Many factory and/or drop base air cleaners have trouble clearing them, so more cobbling for many Ram Air, Shaker or Cowl induction equipped cars.

I'll stop there, going to go out and spend my time doing more important things like throwing a few sticks for my dogs........

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Old 01-17-2023, 01:55 PM
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I've seen a lot of these Edelbrock AFB carbs on many cars for years now. I guess because they're cheap and readily available, many people have them regardless of the performance flaws!!!

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Old 01-17-2023, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Ram Air IV Jack View Post
I've seen a lot of these Edelbrock AFB carbs on many cars for years now. I guess because they're cheap and readily available, many people have them regardless of the performance flaws!!!
Every Autozone and OReillys in the country stocks one of the E-AFB's. That's a bunch!!! The Holley 1850 used to be the default stocked carb.

When I try to explain to some folks, along the lines of what Cliff said in post 29, they look at me like I'm BSing them...

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Old 01-17-2023, 02:13 PM
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That's true Jack, they are everywhere. I've seen my fair share of them here. Usually the car is here for something else and I pray they don't mention carb issues, lol. Because honestly I don't care to dinker with them or the cobbled up mess they've done to install it. Right off the bat they usually require another $100 spent for tuning parts, as mentioned already, and owners already squirm when I mention just that. Basically because the owners are cheap anyway, that's why the carb is on there in the first place. Most owners only care about getting from the house to a car show anyway.

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Old 01-17-2023, 02:41 PM
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When I was deciding on what carb to use I asked lots of people what they're using and how they thought it worked for there application. Thats what my decision was based on, not because I'm cheap.

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Old 01-17-2023, 03:26 PM
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Wasn't meant towards you specifically, it's just what I see in general from my own personal experience.

For what you're doing those smaller eddy carbs generally work ok on stock type engines so you'll probably be just fine. It's just the general consensus of those carbs overall isn't that great.

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  #50  
Old 01-17-2023, 03:43 PM
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I bought a total of one AFB's. It was a new Carter 625. Installed it on a mild SBC. It ended up working pretty good. That was after throwing the full tuning kit at it. Fought a secondary transition stumble.

  #51  
Old 01-17-2023, 04:59 PM
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"Most owners only care about getting from the house to a car show anyway."

+1, 2, and 3!.......

In most cases the end user only cares if the car starts and moves under it's own power and doesn't stall out, hesitate, stumble, bog too bad, or give them any major issues during that deal. If it's not flawless or sucks down a lot more fuel than it should they really don't care as the car only gets driven a couple of times a year, they don't go far, and are just happy it got them to the car show and back to the house without ending up on a roll-back.

This is also why parts that may not be all that great get good and sometimes even RAVING reviews. Once "vested" in something, good, bad or just so-so folks tend to want to spread that "love" around a little anyhow, and in many cases fixing what they already head was way outside their job description, so it didn't work for chit no matter how much effort they put into it. So with all that in mind the accuracy of their reviews and ratings will be somewhat bias more times than not.

You also have to consider with this Internet rating system crap that there will be folks who give an excellent product a bad review because it took too long to show up after they placed the order, or they didn't like the color of the package it came in.

In any case I'll just call it like it is, the vast majority of cars (and trucks) I see at any local car show will have Edelbock AFB clones on them. I do NOT see very many AVS clones....why?........Because they are TWICE the cost......

I've seen Edelbrock push those POS AFB clones for less than $200. I suspect "seconds" or "reconditioned" units folks sent back to them, but doesn't matter, cheap gets the sale when it comes to these things......FWIW.......

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Old 01-17-2023, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenth View Post

Click the link ... 2nd to last pic shows it is clearly a spreadbore.

https://www.edelbrock.com/avs2-800-c...gine-1912.html

Here's the condensed version. Still look a squarebore to you?


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  #53  
Old 01-17-2023, 08:23 PM
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I have run several Original CARTER CORP AFBs and was very happy with them.
A 64-66 Pontiac 389 AFB was very smooth and performed well on both a 389 and 400
engine in my 64 GTO.

I am not going to speak about the "Other stuff" out there.
I will say when you can get a 4400+ pound 63 Catalina Wagon to run CONSISTENT
12.06 ETs in the quarter with a basic hydraulic camshaft and cast iron head and block
455 engine, you know how to tune an engine and Carter AFB Carbs.

Lots of much lighter Tempest/Firebird "race cars" will not run that well with 800 lbs
less weight.

The new carb stuff is fishing for "bait" (suckers) lol..

Tom V.

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  #54  
Old 01-17-2023, 10:34 PM
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1912 is a square bore

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Old 01-18-2023, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint View Post
Click the link ... 2nd to last pic shows it is clearly a spreadbore.

https://www.edelbrock.com/avs2-800-c...gine-1912.html

Here's the condensed version. Still look a squarebore to you?

Even though it has some distance between the primary bores 1912 is a squarebore design.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

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  #56  
Old 01-18-2023, 07:40 AM
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I found this picture which should help. It shows how much different a spread bore intake pattern is to a square bore. All of the Edelbrock AFB and AVS clones would be square even if they happen to bolt up to a spread bore intake using the dual bolt pattern.
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Old 01-18-2023, 07:53 AM
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BTW, if you don't think cheap sells with this hobby consider this. WAY back when Edelbrock discontinued their line of 1901-1910 Q-jets and destroyed the molds I contacted them about it. An employee at that time on the tech line told me that it was purely a marketing decision.

They were selling apprx 1 Q-jet to 30,000 of their 600cfm Performer Series AFB clones. At that time the entry level Performer series 600cfm manual choke units were a tad over $200 and the Edelbrock 1910 850cfm units were closer to $500. Even though the 1910 is superior to the Performer AFB in terms of performance and efficiency they just didn't sell because of the price.

Edelbrock was also shooting themselves in the foot with the Q-jet offerings because it wasn't going to get them a matching intake manifold sale as the end user could put them on stock spread bore intakes.

So like many this associated with this hobby it's going to boil down to money (or being "cheap"), not how good something is or how well it works.........FWIW......

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73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile),
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Old 01-18-2023, 08:52 AM
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I also think the target market doesn't understand any of these differences between a well done Q-jet and a cheap AFB clone. The AFB is shiny and new and it'll make the car run, so SOLD. They have no idea about tuning.

On the car I just bought, the PO slapped a QF 850 double pumper and RPM intake on a warmed-over 400. It ran rich so he swapped it with a QF 750. It still ran rich, fouled plugs, wouldn't idle, etc. I found that the idle mixture screws were closed, the fuel level was too high, the choke was wound tight, the fast idle cam was totally out of adjustment, the pumpers were out of adjustment and a leaking vacuum plug.

I'm always amazed that people think you can take a carb out of the box and slap it on without tuning it. I'm also amazed how many people think the idle mixture screws affect the cruise mixture. I'm boggled.

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Old 01-18-2023, 09:33 AM
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Below is some information I've exchanged with folks who are experts in their field when it comes to aftermarket carburetors and carburetor tuning (they do it for a living).

Before I retired I woudn't share this information because it looks like I'm trying to "bash" the competition to steer work in my direction. In any case, a couple of comments below from folks with EXTENSIVE experience with these things:

"The magazine and the tv hot rod shows do not want to feature anything that does not tell the tale they wish to promote. I have done some work with the new Edelbrock AVS2 carbs with the annular boosters that the media say is great but when I replace the primary boosters with a standard booster the car runs way stronger, so much for believing the media."


"I am backdating most of the newer holley idle wells to 0.106" since most newer holleys have an idle well that is formed with a tapered core plug and I always place the idle jet in the lower position. The people I knew at Holley had sent me a prototype of the 750 cfm ultra series carb that was built by Bo Laws and it was very nice but once they brought the production in house it was not as good as the Bo Laws unit. The idle jet is longer than the one Bo Laws used thus it either sticks out of the passage on the gasket side or out into the idle well which restricts the flow. I either shorten a new idle jet or install an allen head jet that I drill to size. These changes cure the lean off idle problems we see with most newer Holleys"

I shortened up the emails but I think anyone reading them can get the drift. Instead of correcting design flaws with their products these companies just continue to dump them on the market. At that point if the end user isn't happy with it he's either got to become a carburetor expert or hire one to end all the drama. Not a bad deal if you have a part-time gig on a picnic table in your back yard and know where to go in and make the needed changes to get that junk up to par. I started my business in similar fashion. I used to work on ALL types of carburetors until they got piled up too deep around here. Then I decided to pick one type and stick with it, which was a very good business decision. I still turn down at least a dozen jobs a week and I closed down that part of the business over a year ago!.........

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  #60  
Old 01-18-2023, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint View Post
Click the link ... 2nd to last pic shows it is clearly a spreadbore.

https://www.edelbrock.com/avs2-800-c...gine-1912.html

Here's the condensed version. Still look a squarebore to you?

Link CLEARLY shows a SQUAREBORE!

Interesting that e calls it an 800.

Carter called the same configuration a 625. New math???

Jon

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