[lemans411]

Originally Posted by Travis Q

To me, it's all in what you want to call it.

Some say if it's got aftermarket block and heads, it's not a Pontiac anymore.

Some say if it's got a spread bore spacing, it's not a Pontiac anymore.

Some say if you can't bolt a factory timing cover on it anymore, it's not a Pontiac.

If you look at some of the popular racing engines, you see something interesting...CN blocks call their 5.3 bore space block a "BBC". However, it has a much bigger bore spacing, a factory oil pan won't work, a factory timing cover won't even come close, and there's not even a provision for a distributor. Is it a BBC anymore? Some would say no. I, however say yes, because of this fact: the engine reflects changes in design that started off as a factory block. Here's what I mean....one of the first changes to a BBC was deck height. Big deck heights became really common. Then came bigger bore centers. First came 4.900", then 5.000", then 5.200", the 5.300", before ADRL and NHRA finally said "no mas" and put the limit at 5.300" in an effort to contain costs (funny in and of itself). Then there were really big cam core diameters, and radically moved lifters. Some even have skirted mains. At the end of the day, can we really say that it's a Chevy? Not really, but it is still regarded as a BBC because that's where the foundation was.

So the question is, does anyone want to stifle progression in Pontiac parts (and therefore performance) because of an idea of what does or does not constitute a "real" Pontiac? To me, there's not enough people doing fast Pontiacs as it is.....why make life any harder?

It is what it is, and to each his own, I say.

FWIW.

exactly the point i was getting at, well said

[BruceWilkie]

IMO if Pontiac would have been given free reign on engine design they likely would have had something way different under the hood by 1970 let alone further evolve as the 90's approached.

Pontiacs were supposed to be the step up from Chevy... yet they ended up restricted from hurting chevy sales. Wouldnt be surprised if folks at chev are schemeing how they kill off GMC Buick and Cad.

Ive said it more than a few times when they killed PMD... WE are Pontiac now!

We have free reign if we want it. Maybe if enough interest in something it will be made?

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Travis Q

To me, there's not enough people doing fast Pontiacs as it is.....why make life any harder?

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Maybe if enough interest in something it will be made?

I think it has been pretty much proven there is NOT enough interest.
So many just express the want from envy and ego!
Many vendors producing new innovative "Pontiac" stuff are hardly thriving..

I wonder how many sets of pro ports Edelbrock has sold?
Might they be regretting the production at this point.

Locally we used to have a number of Pontiac guys, now we have two and one doesn't give a chit anymore!

[Scarebird]

Originally Posted by p4msi1

There is no more pontiac.period. That means we can do what we want and not rely on what parts Pontiac would produce for us. Why don't we build something better than everybody else. If All Pontiac or Kauffman would build a spread bore block/crank and matching heads with 5-6 bolts per cylinder and 500cfm capacity, they could call it Pontiac 2.0. We don't know if Pontiac would have built it if they still existed. I think as long as it appears to look like a pontiac and it has a pontiac name on it, and we call it a pontiac, its a pontiac.
Fords new 5.0 does not look like an old 5.0, so is it a ford?
The ls-1 does not look like a typical small block so, is it a chevy?
The new dodges don't start like or look like the old ones. are they dodges?
You guys are getting your panties in a wad over nuthin. You keep peddling the old junk heads and overheated cracked blocks and thats what gets chevy motors in our beloved GTO's and Firebirds. HEY, purist puke, LOOK at me when I'm talking to you... My IA2 block and Tiger heads are not factory correct for my 1969 model year Pontiac Firebird. Man, I'm just gettin started.........

Steve

No, the LS architecture is GM, as was the Vega aluminum motor though with much better results.

[JD311]

The LS is an updated sbc with ford bolt pattern heads and ports, same bore spacing as a sbc just skirted block and lots of visual changes and features. Most engines it's all in the heads anyways, doesn't matter what the block is lol

[JD311]

Hey those visner heads will still bolt on my 400 block! Lol

[rexs73gto]

If it doesn't use the HT-951 lifters & real Pontiac heads will bolt on the block it is a Pontiac. It is no longer a Pontiac if it has a chevy , olds or buick engine in it. When GM started using all the other engines from the other divisions then Pontiacs no longer were Pontiacs. But this is not smart question as the answer is in its self. A Pontiac is no longer a Pontiac when it no longer has a Pontiac engine in it. Plain & simple. If Pontiac developed it & used it then it's a Pontiac engine. If not then it belongs to another division then it's not a Pontiac engine which makes it something other then a real Pontiac. Plain & simple.

[Blued and Painted]

But look at the total package. If it's got a mustang style front end and a 9 inch, mine as well be an SCJ. So who is crossing over the line?

[rexs73gto]

Lets make it simpler then the last post. If it says Pontiac on the car It better be Pontiac powered to be a Pontiac. Dive train & suspension has & can be changed because it's not the Heart of the car. Pontiac cars Pontiac Power. Thats it.

[p4msi1]

Scarebird, technically you are correct the ls-1 was a GM effort but try and convince that point to the chevy crowd.

Hey guys, think about this. In 30 years what will this hobby be? History will repeat itself just like the old 30's-40's-50's cars got their engines pulled and a better performing engine installed. That will happen here too, unless we come up with something as good or better. I am about to go pick up 2 -400's that I finally found for almost $1000.00 and hopefully there are no cracks and they are actually rebuildable. I used to find these for 150.00, this situation is only going to get worst for our kids and grandkids. I will not race these engines so as to preserve them. I will however rebuild 1 of them for one of my employees, he's a good kid and I also would like to get the 350 sbc out of his 78 formula. It will be his 2014 early christmas bonus.

Steve

[J.C.you]

If someone wanted to build a wider bore space block, spend the $$$$, and christen it a pontiac, more power to them. Would GM give a hoot, doubt it. It still would be a niche motor with very few buying such a application.
I know I sound like a broken record, but we should focus on modified short deck, smaller cube applications. We would already have a bore space advantage over the typical brandx smallblock, if sanctioning bodies would approve it as a Small Block Pontiac or SBP.
Heck, since there is a copy of the aussie pro stock head available, get the SBP block approved, build one and run it in Pro Stock there.

[mgarblik]

As has been said, if you want to know what traditional Pontiac engines will look like in 30 years, just look in the rear view mirror. How many flathead Fords are still out there? There is a small group of die-hard mostly stock components cars still running and a tiny group of pretty radical flat heads with highly modified billet heads and very exotic hardware. The traditional SBC lovers are just beginning to see their beloved engine family slowly fade away the way of the flathead Ford. The far superior LS series engine is finding it's way into all kinds of "classic" Chevy's and really pissing the traditionalists off. A taste of their own medicine as far as us Pontiac guys go. So where will the traditional Pontiac be in the future? In my opinion, a smaller group of enthusiasts by any measure, a tiny group still pushing the envelope of the basic design for their own amusement. I see no reason or benefit to stifle their efforts in any way. Like it or not, few outside our tiny world could care a less.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Blued and Painted

But look at the total package. If it's got a mustang style front end and a 9 inch, mine as well be an SCJ. So who is crossing over the line?

Many years ago some Chevy racers were complaining about the 2-speed (powerglide) transmission installed in a Ford racer's Super Street Mustang. They said that is not right and it is not a Ford part.

The Racer said, "Ok I will remove my PG trans and put a 2 speed C-6 transmission in my car. All of you guys remove your Ford 9" Rear Axles from your Chevelles, Novas, and Camaros, put the 10 bolts back in and lets race. END OF DISCUSSION BY THE GM CAMP.

Racing in my mind is about finding the most durable components for the application that will allow maximum performance. Durability being based on more than one pass down the track. There is a lot of cross-pollination: basically the influence or inspiration between or among diverse elements: Examples being Ford Tunnel Port and Pontiac RA-V. 392 Chrysler Hemi and M/T Hemi.....................

Instead of "What If" (Pontiac had built a Race hemi), How about "What Do" in order to go faster and be competitive in today's racing world.
Visner's Head is a Pontiac Head (no different than if M/T did it).

Tom V.

ps The 10 Head Bolt Deal would immediately eliminate your fastest vehicle from the record book (The Rodney/Travis Tempest).

[gene simmons]

Take a IA 2 block and make a wider BS,then at least JC wouldn't have to offset the bores,
and it would still resemble a Pontiac.
I always thought if defining features were lost it was no longer a pontiac,such as cutting off the exh ports on the heads. Evidently a race head can't be designed and resemble the original. Ok that feature is gone,but we still have the aftermarket blocks that still look like the originals.
If all identifiable features of the original are gone,than go with something that is less expensive and proven.
That's what Marty P. has done.

In other words if you can bolt a Pontiac timing cover to it,its a Pontiac. LoL

[Stan Weiss]

OK, let get to the heart of it. Would you say this is a PONTIAC? This is the Pickett's Warp 6 headed, short deck, tunnel ram engine.

I would / do!

Stan

[twooldgoats]

If it evolves step-by-step from a Pontiac engine, it's a Pontiac engine. Simple as that.

Jim

[Scarebird]

Originally Posted by rexs73gto

If it doesn't use the HT-951 lifters & real Pontiac heads will bolt on the block it is a Pontiac. It is no longer a Pontiac if it has a chevy , olds or buick engine in it. When GM started using all the other engines from the other divisions then Pontiacs no longer were Pontiacs. But this is not smart question as the answer is in its self. A Pontiac is no longer a Pontiac when it no longer has a Pontiac engine in it. Plain & simple. If Pontiac developed it & used it then it's a Pontiac engine. If not then it belongs to another division then it's not a Pontiac engine which makes it something other then a real Pontiac. Plain & simple.

so, by your logic any six cylinder Firebird built after 1969 or a 403 powered T/A is not a Pontiac?

When I design my brake stuff one of the criteria is to see if an existing design will work suitably. Factors like inventory and engineering cost play a big part. GM of course does the same but at a dozen magnitudes greater, and viewing this from a manufacturer's viewpoint the constant whinging about powerplants is getting infantile.

Stratostreak engine finished up in 1981
Pontiac was axed in 2009

We should be grateful that guys like Kaufmann, Butler, Edelbrock and other step up and make stuff for a 2nd tier brand like ours, obsolete as it is.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

OK, let get to the heart of it. Would you say this is a PONTIAC? This is the Pickett's Warp 6 headed, short deck, tunnel ram engine.

I would / do!

Stan

I would say , thats a real bad a$$ Pontiac motor that I would like to have!!

[demonic68]

I feel once a PMD motor or PMD based motor is removed from the Pontiac it is no longer a Pontiac once a Chevy Oldsmobile or Buick motor Enters the frame it is a corporate car Not a true Pontiac

[GTOGEORGE]

The problem WE have with change to the Pontiac engine is Pontiac stopped making the Pontiac engine in 79-80 and then GM stopped producing the Pontiac car a few years ago. So we have what we have.


GTO George