#1  
Old 05-31-2022, 08:01 PM
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tremo tremo is offline
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Exclamation QuadraJet - Which secondary metering rod to use?

I'm considering changing the secondary metering rods on my rebuilt '72 Chevy #7042210 QuadraJet on my 400ci to see if it improves my ETs. I haven't taken the carb apart yet to measure the thickness of the current rod tips, but I see Summit offers the following secondary metering rods:

EDL-1951: 0.0410" Letter code CE for identification
EDL-1954: 0.0667" Letter code CL for identification
JET-201010: No size given. Fits stamp DA

Not sure what the letter codes stand for? Any ideas?

Am I correct in assuming that the larger the diameter rod, the less fuel is delivered? So, if I find that I have a larger diameter rod installed, I should go down in size (like the rod that is 0.0410?) for more fuel when the secondaries are at WOT?

Thanks!

Jim.

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* Engine alive and kickin' March 2nd, '06
* RA-IV 'spec' 400 (.060-over = 410ci), balanced, Comp Cams #9794041, #16 heads (72cc converted to large valve) with 1.65 Harland Sharp Rollers
* QuadraJet #7042210, HEI, Hurst V-Gate, FlowTech Headers, X-Pipe with dumps, Flowmasters, TH-350, 3.90 Posi
* Best ET: 14.06 - Bandimere Speedway, CO. @ 5,800+'

Last edited by tremo; 05-31-2022 at 08:19 PM.
  #2  
Old 05-31-2022, 09:39 PM
74Grandville 74Grandville is offline
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your questions have the correct answers. the other consideration is the hanger. A = richer Z = Leaner

i did a quick search on google.

https://www.carburetion.com/rodshang.asp

http://www.hioutput.com/tech/qjetrod.html

obviously before you make any changes, you need to find out what you already have installed.

usually around a G hanger and DA rod should be a good starting point if the Main circuit is setup correctly.

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Old 05-31-2022, 10:02 PM
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Initially years ago I followed Doug Roe s book now I use Cliffs Qjet book.

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Old 06-01-2022, 06:06 AM
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I stock AX and DA secondary metering rods. Your carburetor originally came with DA's. The AX rods will richen it up a tad over the DA's.

https://cliffshighperformance.com/pr...-metering-rods

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Old 06-01-2022, 02:45 PM
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one of the things I really appreciated about Cliff's book, was the listings at the back to identify via the letter codes all of the secondary metering rods - super handy!!

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Old 06-01-2022, 07:26 PM
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Thanks everyone for the excellent replies! I've bookmarked Cliff's site and may order from him soon after I check my current metering rods...

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* '69 Custom S - 2dr Hardtop Coupe - Rust-free Oregon survivor with all original panels and original trunk floor
* Engine alive and kickin' March 2nd, '06
* RA-IV 'spec' 400 (.060-over = 410ci), balanced, Comp Cams #9794041, #16 heads (72cc converted to large valve) with 1.65 Harland Sharp Rollers
* QuadraJet #7042210, HEI, Hurst V-Gate, FlowTech Headers, X-Pipe with dumps, Flowmasters, TH-350, 3.90 Posi
* Best ET: 14.06 - Bandimere Speedway, CO. @ 5,800+'
  #7  
Old 06-02-2022, 07:38 AM
GTO-relic GTO-relic is offline
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CE metering rod is the richest long power tip rod originally made by GM for any quadrajet, meaning the power tip starts flowing maximum fuel at 70-80 degrees of throttle opening. The dimensions on it are .135-.096-.041" long tip.

CL metering rod is a long taper rod that is on the lean side at .135-.108-.067" also with long power tip. It will reach the power tip at the same time as the CE rod, but has a .026" larger tip. that would be like jetting down about 4-5 jet sizes.

a good approach would be obtain as many of the long power tip rods as you can find, and use them like you would use jets in a Holley. From leanest to richest they are:

DD-.105" (leanest secondary rods GM ever made for Qjet, period)
BS/CZ-.095"
CG/AS-.077"
AT/CL-.067"
BZ/CX/AY/AZ/CD-.057"
AU/CV/CK-.053"
CE-.041" (richest long power tip rods GM ever made)

keep in mind these are metering rods, the smaller size is richer.

there are medium and short taper rods that are richer than the CE rod, but they'll delay the power tip to wider throttle opening point. the richest triple-taper rod GM ever made, was a BV with a .030" short tip.
so you can take ANY rod, turn the tip down in a drill or mini lathe to .030", and have the same WOT function as the BV. or...cut the tip off, and you have the richest metering rod, because the tip is completely gone, and the secondary jets have no restriction at WOT at all, like the AD rod.

if you're racing, you can just REMOVE THE RODS AND HANGER. we did. it works. you can also remove the primary power piston rods, and just run jets. I did, it worked.

the limiting factor for a Qjet carb is, beyond a certain point, the single needle valve can't flow enough fuel to keep the bowl filled. at that point you need a dual feed, dual fuel bowl carb, like a Holley, or Carter Competition Series, etc. I did reach that point, and had to bid the Qjet goodbye. If I had run 1/2" fuel line from the tank sock to the carb, or a fuel cell up higher in the trunk, I may have been able to cure that problem...instead I threw the towel in on the Qjet. The engine would just suck the Qjet fuel bowl dry, even with 2 fuel pumps, an electric pushing into a mechanical. I was running a '70 Buick 800cfm center, '69 Pontiac 428 baseplate, top. Back to back the 800 center was worth 3 tenths, and a phenolic spacer was worth another tenth. 4 tenths difference between a flush mounted 750 Qjet, and the 800 center Qjet w/spacer, on a bone stock 400 RA IV cammed fresh motor, with iron intake, #12 heads, headers, 3640lb w/driver, automatic street car. Later on with the bigger motor, dropped a Holley 3310 on the motor, fuel starvation problem instantly solved.

A medium power tip starts at 80-90 degrees throttle, and a short power tip starts at 90-100 degrees throttle. it's a good starting point. there are many richer metered rods at WOT than that, but they are medium and short taper, meaning they'd delay the fuel flow to wider throttle opening points. the richest of all was the AD rod, which had no power tip at all. i.e. at wide open throttle, it flowed through the open secondary fixed jets with no restriction, into the secondaries. you can make any rod into an AD rod, by grinding the tip off.

FWIW, if you have enough motor, in the 1/4 mile the metering rods in a Qjet don't even matter. 25 years ago we were at the track with a friend's race car, running a 428 Pontiac. It was running 10.50's with a Qjet. He changed the metering rods a few times, but it didn't make any difference. I suggested simply REMOVING the rods and hangers, and do a test run. it ran 2mph faster, and 2 hundredths slower on the next run, with no rods or hanger at all.

you want to meter the secondaries on a Qjet to give the engine all it's got as soon as it's opened, provided that's not too rich for the CID, cam, intake, heads being used. Drive around part throttle on the primaries and get the sharp throttle response, and good drive-ability, mileage. In a way you can think of the primaries as the idling and city/highway cruising mileage carb, and the secondaries as the power carb.

the vintage Carter Competition Series 1970-74 carbs were a Qjet on steroids with dual floats, dual float bowls, and phenolic center section. If you like the spreadbore design and Qjets in general, find the vintage Carter Comp series and purchase it, and tune it up. you won't regret it. it's identical in venturi, throttle plate design to a Qjet, just much better fuel delivery, and about 50cfm more flow, i.e. 850 cfm. They were advertised as 1000 cfm when new, but that was stretch advertising. it will support a higher level of horsepower than a Qjet will, due to having dual needle valves, one per side, but with the same street driving manners.

keep in mind this is relates to what hanger is used. a B hanger pulls metering rods out of the jets in secondary about .095" further, than the leanest letter V hanger. When I was using, building, selling a lot of Qjets, back in 1982-1998 era, I would only use B-C-D-E-F-G-H-I-J hangers. those are the richest ones made, in .005" lift increments, from a B with .520" drop, to a J with .560" drop. You can just bend any of them to the B dimension. If you use a V hanger with a .615" drop, it will negate the effects of the richest AD rod to some extent, because it will keep the metering rods .095" further down in the hole, compared to a B hanger. so....I'd just avoid the lean hangers altogether.

NHRA Pontiac SuperStock 400 racers used to run a J hanger with an AX rod with .040" short tip.


Last edited by GTO-relic; 06-02-2022 at 08:10 AM.
  #8  
Old 06-02-2022, 08:43 AM
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There are secondary metering rods with long tips smaller than CE, the rods from the 301 turbo carburetors are one example.

Since I build and supply parts for folks who race in quite a few racing classes, including circle track , most carbs are supplied to them with a set of machined secondary metering rods machined from the same cores.

These rods will then have the same upper section diameter, taper, tip length and included angle leading to the tips. This is the ONLY way to make predictable metering changes with a Q-jet without also having to mess with hangers.

Some racers are more meticulous than others and want a full set from about .028" to past .060" in .002-.003" increments. I think .005" is close enough, but if you are trying to be the very best and data logging, using DA, etc I guess precision is king.

The later model Q-jets are 850cfm, not 800 cfm. All early versions are 750cfm. Most don't flow to full potential as the factory limited the open angle of the secondary air flaps and sometimes the secondary throttle plates (1968 FB's come to mind here) to limit CFM and engine power.

I do agree that the biggest stumbling block for the Q-jet is one N/S assembly, but even with that going on we have customers feeding big power with them and running well into the 9's. Several ways to skin that cat. Some use smaller N/S assemblies and high fuel pressure, other larger N/S assemblies and less pressure. ALL will use at least 8AN fuel lines, and a rear mounted pump at 140gpm or larger fed from a sumped tank or fuel cell.

As far as tuning with secondary metering rods your aren't chasing much there, assuming the carb is well dialed in right to start with and staying FULL on a hard run. On quite a few occasions early in my learning curve I've changed secondary metering rods from so rich the engine was huffing a little black smoke to so lean it started to surge slightly on the top end and didn't see more than about a tenth and a half for ET difference and less than 2mph.

So if you thing you're chasing half second or so in vehicle performance save your time/funds. Personally I prefer to run a tad 'fat" at WOT. EGT's are lower and less chance of putting a piston in the oil pan just to show a few hundreds quicker on tthe time slip.....FWIW......

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Old 06-02-2022, 10:15 AM
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agreed....if the difference between using metering rods, and no rods is so slight...why bother if racing. but you need enough motor to run a Qjet with no secondary metering rods without being too rich. if it's a handicap bracket class, jets with no metering rods would be more consistent, less complex, less can go wrong with fuel just going through a hole, with no hangers, rods, flap tension spring, power piston spring to consider at all.

super stockers don't run fast because they have the best carburetor. they run fast because they have really good chassis setup that hooks, and puts it all to the ground.

take any Super Stocker, and start an unlimited single carburetor class, all other rules being equal, the unlimited class would have aftermarket Holleys, Dominators, etc. and be faster.

let's be honest here. the first thing an honest Qjet builder will tell you is,
you will always make more HP with a Holley, inch for inch.
but the Qjet does a damned good job for what it was, and is.
in the case of SS class racers, that's the carb they have to run,
because of the rule book,
not their carb of choice otherwise.
if Qjets were the best carb made for maximum HP,
NASCAR would have been running Qjets instead of Holleys back when they still ran carbs.
and the GT-40 would have ran a Qjet at LeMans, instead of a Holley, back in the 1960's


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Old 06-02-2022, 10:27 AM
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the early Pontiac SD455 and Buick 455 1970-74 carbs were always listed as 800cfm rating, not 850cfm. Are you saying the later 1975-up carbs flow 850cfm ?
Where's the extra 50cfm come from ?

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Old 06-02-2022, 11:02 AM
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the early Carter Competition Thermoquad, was obviously a high end copy of a Qjet from day one, it had the single venturi booster like a 455HO carb, bigger primary bores, dual floats, dual needle valves, phenolic center. One look at the top, you can tell they copied a Qjet, and improved the fuel delivery. A single inlet line splits into 2 feeds internally. Not to be confused with the production Mopar Thermoquads, these used unique jets, and some other one off parts.
Back in 2000-2010 they were on Ebay for $75-$125 each. I sold all my Qjets but kept these. Picked up half a dozen over the years....everyone was kicking them to the curb to buy Demons, Holley HP, etc. Oddly enough many Buick GS guys sold me their old Carter Comps for a song. Now they bring a lot more just for a core. The float bowls are on the sides, not in the middle like a Qjet.
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  #12  
Old 06-02-2022, 11:04 AM
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too bad they stopped making them like this.
gas crunch hit 1973, drag racing and demand fell off a bit.
they were discontinued.
Carter actually did make a better Qjet IMHO, improved linkage, albeit more complex.
but it was expensive, and now somewhat scarce, and pricey.
I look at these, and realize they had to pay some sort of licensing fee to Rochester,
to make a carb so similar looking on top and bottom...
Qjet was the cutting edge of carb technology back then,
Carter figured, why reinvent the wheel. Just modify and improve it a bit.
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Last edited by GTO-relic; 06-02-2022 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 06-02-2022, 02:15 PM
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check out this HD...on a parts carb vintage Carter Comp series.
the huge jets are the primaries.
the smaller jets with ends sticking out, are secondaries
needle valve threads in back of carb.
Buick guys would run 93 jets in front, 125 jets in rear
this parts carb has 89 jets in front. jets are screwed in upside down into towers.
I believe that's an idle jet in the side, pressed in, for primaries.
on top, very simple. one air bleed primary, one air bleed secondary, and opening for primary metering rods. these do not run any secondary metering rods. it's been years since I looked at this stuff.
this center section is an 850, with venturi in bore.
the "1000" has no venturi, it's straight through on primaries.
secondary tension adjustment is all on the side, with washer locking screw.
no allen underneath like a Qjet.
one carb with a spare center, easy swap from 850 to 1000cfm. use the same lid.
jets, needle valves, floats, metering rods all stay with the lid. pull it off, and change the metering. leave the base, center on the car.
primary booster venturi has only one ring, for more flow.
all air bleeds in the lid covered by a hinge pinned cover
these carbs, were badasz
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  #14  
Old 06-02-2022, 02:18 PM
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idle jet (?), fuel distribution tower to primary, secondary nozzles.
the round tube casting sticking out of the lid, is the accelerator pump housing
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  #15  
Old 06-02-2022, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO-relic View Post
the early Pontiac SD455 and Buick 455 1970-74 carbs were always listed as 800cfm rating, not 850cfm. Are you saying the later 1975-up carbs flow 850cfm ?
Where's the extra 50cfm come from ?
After reading all your posts, I just noticed this one, and think I can offer some assistance;

The 1971 Pontiac (except 400/auto & 455-D-port/auto) used the same 750cfm main body casting, but with the lower booster ring removed - which is why they have a small bump in cfm.

The real 850cfm used a totally different main body casting with a larger primary bore;
I believe that this was a Buick casting which I also believe was only used on a couple engines;
There is a pronounced hump in the side wall of the primary bore.
If you have Cliff's book, flip to page #31 - it's shown on the top.

I believe that Pontiac opted to use this "Buick" bowl casting for all their Quadrajets starting with the 1975 model year.

I when I was looking for a picture to add to this post, I found THIS post elsewhere...

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  #16  
Old 06-02-2022, 03:01 PM
GTO-relic GTO-relic is offline
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may as well finish up...idle jet in side of main well tower,
jet seals on main well, idle jet feeds cavity around main jet,
idle jet pulls directly from the float bowl, not off the main well
idle passages crosses to other side, goes down side of main well tower,
up into top of carb, picks up idle air bleed, and goes forward to front edge of lid,
then straight down through front of phenolic center section,
into the baseplate, very similar to Qjet idle discharge, transfer slot.
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  #17  
Old 06-02-2022, 03:04 PM
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downward through phenolic center, into baseplate, to idle discharge passages/slots
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Last edited by GTO-relic; 06-02-2022 at 03:46 PM.
  #18  
Old 06-02-2022, 03:06 PM
GTO-relic GTO-relic is offline
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primary power piston/metering rod vacuum source
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Last edited by GTO-relic; 06-02-2022 at 03:22 PM.
  #19  
Old 06-02-2022, 03:08 PM
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idle air bypass for front barrels, on this parts carb not drilled. I've had to drill them through before.
these Carter Comp carbs will drizzle on the main nozzles, just like a Qjet, idle bypass air is part of the cure.
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Last edited by GTO-relic; 06-02-2022 at 03:45 PM.
  #20  
Old 06-02-2022, 03:29 PM
GTO-relic GTO-relic is offline
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rear idle air bypass, not drilled on this
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Last edited by GTO-relic; 06-02-2022 at 03:43 PM.
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