[77 Canamman]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SD-45...90442096QQrdZ1

[Brian Baker]

NOS shaker scoop decals.

[J.C.you]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

Please tell me you understand the difference between a "mule" car built by engineering with a non-standard VIN number never intended to be sold to the general public and one that rolls off the assembly line. There is too much evidence at this time that indicates there never was an A or G body car in '73 that rolled off the assembly line with a SD-455 in it.

Baker, i fully understand the difference........the question is, whether you understand how to spell Energizer?

and i know where you will go from here about assembly line..... if you could get it thru your neander skull that vins could be changed, just like changing a tire....... GM put the vins on the cars, they sure could swap them also... this is the point i am making...... a mule car could have be sent out as a regular production unit. there would be no way to verify it and the party or parties involved surely wouldn't admit to it........

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by J.C.you

Baker, i fully understand the difference........the question is, whether you understand how to spell Energizer?

and i know where you will go from here about assembly line..... if you could get it thru your neander skull that vins could be changed, just like changing a tire....... GM put the vins on the cars, they sure could swap them also... this is the point i am making...... a mule car could have be sent out as a regular production unit. there would be no way to verify it and the party or parties involved surely wouldn't admit to it........

Wait...hold on a second...let me get this straight...you never asked what type of rockers they were before agreeing to purchase them, even when they were advertised at such a low price they couldn't possibly have been Gold rockers, but you assumed they were, and I'm the "neander skull"?

That's "neanderthal skull", by the way.

Hey, you got your money back (minus the shipping one way, which I wasn't responsible for due to your buyers remorse), so GFY.

Pontiac has never released a mule car for sale to someone from the "general public" that I know of, save for Tom Goad's Grand Am wagon. His wagon was converted from its "mule" status to an ordinary LeMans wagon however, because of the obvious government regulations and potential liability Pontiac had to adhere to. Same goes for the SD-455, it wasn't released in an A or G body for the same government regulation and potential liability obligations. Too much evidence out there to back this fact up (the nonsensical ramblings of an illiterate swamp runner and some Ford-SS guy not withstanding).

[Brian Baker]

Lynn, did you talk to your Ford-SS friend tonight?

[J.C.you]

i knew you couldn't spell energizer. neander for short. or just "nully" for you.GFY also....

[fiedlerh]

Tom's wagon is an early production 73 LeMans wagon, maybe one of the first off the Framingham line according to this month's PE magazine. I believe it has a LeMans wagon VIN, but I'm not sure. I suppose mule cars could be mostly built by engineering or they could be production line pilot run cars sent to engineering for modifications, evaluation (and probable destruction). A-body VINs are at the windshield base, firewall under the heater box, and on the rear frame rail. These would be nearly impossible to change.

Is it correct to assume cars built by engineering and pre-pilot (if there is such a thing) cars would not have VINs, but pilot cars would? I remember the 84 Fiero engineering car introduced at POCI Buffalo had a VIN that ended in 00067 and the Solaris at Norwalk had a special VIN indicating it was "experimental". Jim Mattison says very very few early VIN cars seem to have survived as he almost never gets inquiries for them.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by J.C.you

i knew you couldn't spell energizer. neander for short. or just "nully" for you.GFY also....

Buyer beware douchebag...they were not misadvertised...you never asked...you got your money back...now STFU, swamp runnin' hick.

[johnta1]

Gosh, Lynn, I didn't know your post was about name calling, etc.

There are many examples of cars getting 'special' treatment.
Mitchell's Trans Am, Mac's OHC engined car, Herb Adam's and more.

Personally, if I owned the car, I wouldn't let you guys know about it after all this Bullsh|t. Why should he care what you guys think.

As for Mattison not getting any business from the early VIN's, there are literally millions of Pontiac owners that don't know about his business.
Possibly even don't care.

Maybe in the not too far future some of this may be cleared up.

[J.C.you]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

Buyer beware douchebag...they were not misadvertised...you never asked...you got your money back...now STFU, swamp runnin' hick.

let's play jeopardy.......

cagatory- " NULLY POSTER "

answer: Who is the only "in his own mind, know all" on PY that has over 10,000 mind numbing ramblings?

could you ever STFU?, i doubt it...

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Gosh, Lynn, I didn't know your post was about name calling, etc.

It wasn't, John...until the illiterate swamp runnin' hick from "Bayou La Batre land" brought something into the discussion from several years ago that had nothing to do with Lynn's topic.

[J.C.you]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

It wasn't, John...until the illiterate swamp runnin' hick from "Bayou La Batre land" brought something into the discussion from several years ago that had nothing to do with Lynn's topic.

i was on the topic until pompous, nully post no 80, on the thread...

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by J.C.you

i was on the topic until pompous, nully post no 80, on the thread...

You're not only illiterate, your difficulty with comprehension (or dee-fickle-tee with kom-pre-hen-shun in your case) is self evident. Post #80 was on topic. Post #83 veered off topic with the "Energizer" comment, which has nothing to do with what we are discussing, along with your feeble attempt at insulting.

[77 Canamman]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

Yeah, no s.hit....

[uneasyrider]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

Lynn, did you talk to your Ford-SS friend tonight?

What's this Ford-SS thing that keeps coming up?

I ask because I had a guy at work telling me he used to own an SS Mustang. I figured he was either someone who knew nothing about cars, flat full of it, his memory was faulty on the matter, or it was some odd ball POS I hadn't ever heard of.

So are you talking about what this guy was talking about? Was there some dang Ford SS Mustang they came out with?

[fasteddy]

SS= Super Stock class racer

[David Holmberg]

OK, ONE MORE TIME, PLEASE keep this on TOPIC.
Continued off topic posts will result in warnings.

Thank you.

[screamingchief]

Well following the trail of clues left by Lynn,the guy who is making this claim is Alex Denysenko,a division 5 (IHRA) super stock racer,he is the guy that has those NOS SD-455 decal listed on Ebay,he has a pic of the car in his E-bay ad,and a quick search of the web gets you a website on that outfit.

An interesting tidbit that ties this together is on that website,that is link to a page on an awards banquet for the IHRA,in the text for that he thanks Lynn and his wife for sharing in that event.
Banquet page.

Here is the homepage for said website:moneymakerracing.com

Another interesting page:Moneymaker racing friends page.

He said if you guys want to wager sufficient cash, and can find a way for him to document it, like driving to Lyons, IL, he will show you the official documentation that is irrefutable. Order form, receipt, window sticker. He said he could scan the original window sticker, but due to the insurance liability he must block the VIN.

What is with the "wager sufficient cash" crap ???

Sounds just like this fella who emailed and said he is a Nigerian millionaire with these minor banking problems and needs my help to straighten them out,for which I will be richly rewarded...

What exactly is this guys price to prove this???

I'll wager we never get to hear that info either,just more BS comments like "if you hafta ask you cant afford to find out".

I know tons of diehard pontiac folks within a 20-30 minute drive of Lyons Il. as I grew up just across the border in SE Wisconsin.

I think if I mentioned this to Dan Whitmore he may even be interested enough to go see this fellas info.

I'll call this bluff,,,I'm sure I could get one or two of the pontiac faithfull to stop on down there and take a look at this fellas "irrefutable documentation".

Now what excuse will be used to dodge the subject and keep that from happening???

I agree this seems to be a steaming load of BS,like it or not mongo is right here IMO,if you got the proof,step forward like a man and quit playing games like a woman.

Especially the VIN comment,no-way the insurance co. could go after him for posting the VIN,first thing is they would have an extremely hard time proving the intent of his actions and then there's a thing those insurance companies cant get around very easily and that is called the first ammendment.

Not even going to bring the statue of limitations into this discussion,that claim sounds as though it's been long past it's shelf life.

Insurance fraud my a$$...

Most of that info would be part of the public record anyways,all you really need to know is the fella's full/legal name (got most of it now) & DOB and you would be able to find out the rest thru a title search likely.

Sooooo the new excuse swiftly moves to,,,"well now I wont publish the VIN to keep the nefarious clone makers from duping this car and taking some hapless fellow to the cleaner by selling a "one of none" historically important car for major bank"...

A "clone maker" would hafta have a major screw loose to try and pull that trick off,especially when the car in question was (and for all purposes of this discussion,,,still is...) a stolen car,a car whose ownership would most likely be in dispute by an insurance co. with very deep pockets the very moment said car with that VIN appeared in public.

Think about that,that would be akin to copying a well known stolen work of art,and then putting it up for sale at a famous auction house or such...

The car would be seized immediately,,,your out your investment $$$$,,,and likely going straight to prision,,,yeah,,,sign me up for that!!!

All the proof offered so far has been dubious at best,spurious at worst.

Sad really,,,when it would be soooooo easy to prove conclusively if indeed it were a factory production car,and not some supposed "one off" engineering car or dealer car,that cant find a reliable/documented provenance thru it's VIN number...

I'll wager if I went on a ford super stock board or such place this "guy" frequents and said I had a boss 429 pinto that was built by the factory I would get called on that by him,and it would be laughed at as total BS by the rest of those there unless I stepped forward with undeniable proof of my claims.

Why should PY be any different?

I'm done here.

[brians]

It did not click on whom Lynn was talking about until I saw the Ebay link that 77 Canamman posted.

Alex runs the forum on Mustangsandmore.com. He posts under Moneymaker and puts everyone here to shame with the number of posts a day. (I lurk around on there once in a while.)

He must have been pulling Lynn’s leg. He does not seem the type to make claims like this just to brag.

If I remember right he posted on that site last year that he turned 53. That would put him at only about 18 or 19 when he supposedly ordered this car, plus I do not remember him ever posting about owning a Pontiac or even talking about Pontiacs when they do come up over there.

[Rocky Rotella]

I’ve been following this topic fairly close hoping too, that conclusive evidence of an elusive SD-powered Grand Am would surface, but my personal opinion (which means nothing btw) is similar to others.

Without seemingly trying to debate either side, I took the opportunity today to contact former Pontiac Product Planning Manager Tom Goad. Goad’s interest in A-body vehicles (particularly 73’s) is very high. He was also heavily involved in seeing the SD-455 into production vehicles once the engine was released by the engineering. Because of all this he is considered to be a highly credible source.

Goad said that anything is certainly possible, but that he highly doubts there ever was a production Super Duty Grand Am or Grand Prix. He confirmed that there were a few pilot cars that contained SD engines, but said that because they were neither safety nor emissions certified, there wasn’t any way they’d get into the public’s hands. (McCully once told me that they were VERY strict about this for fear of heavy lawsuits).

Goad added that ALL pilot/engineering Super Duty Grand Ams were returned and scrapped or used for safety testing (crashed). He said that while it’s possible that a GM executive could have a one-off vehicle built, there’s no way it happen on the assembly line and that such a vehicle’s existence is not probable. He said if someone claims to have the VIN, contact Jim Mattison at PHS for the factory-to-dealer invoice and that will settle once and for all how the vehicle in question was truly built.