#61  
Old 03-14-2007, 01:23 PM
brians's Avatar
brians brians is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Streetsboro, Ohio
Posts: 598
Default

I firmly believe there were plenty of things done that were against the rules and one of’s, however in this case I am now completely in the BS group.

I don’t know if someone wrote a book, but these stories always have 3 basic “rules”.

1) Make outrageous claim.

2) State someone high up got it passed.

3) Make excuses why you won’t produce the proof.


Some of the best stories I have heard were:
The 68 GTO with factory fiberglass fenders. (his friend knew someone who knew Delorean and had them special made for him and installed on the line)

The only factory green 1986 Grand National. (His father bought in new and knew someone high up in Buick – had to tell him he had a turbo Regal and not a GN)

A 1978 T/A with a factory installed 455. (Bought it from his his brother's friend, who knew someone at the dealer, who had the factory find one and install it on the line – loved that one because it was a ‘74 455 in the car)



In this case, I believed it at first because it was Lynn posting it. Normally I find his posts very informative and factual and assumed he had seen the proof before posting.

I looked past the claim that an ex-chairman supposedly pushed it through a dealer for an employee of his brother. (what would he do for a friend?) I looked past the fact that the person claiming it knows how many where built, the colors, and who they went to, but did not remember that the chairman who pushed it through had been retired for a year at the time he ordered it.

What I cannot look through is the “His insurance company says if he publishes the VIN, he could be liable for the insurance fraud”, but if you pay me I’ll forget about the fraud liability?? That has got to be the best story I have ever heard of why someone can’t or won’t produce the proof.


This is where I just say “OK” and walk away.

The Following User Says Thank You to brians For This Useful Post:
  #62  
Old 03-14-2007, 03:09 PM
Brian Baker's Avatar
Brian Baker Brian Baker is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Posts: 17,184
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnta1
Have you heard of a 455 SD Grand Prix?
No. If one exists, current evidence concludes it was not factory built.

__________________
Just a blind squirrel looking for a nut.
  #63  
Old 03-14-2007, 03:41 PM
Jim Rotella Jim Rotella is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Omaha, Nebr
Posts: 543
Default

Back in that era, John Clegg used to race a super stock '73 455 Grand Prix that he retro-fitted with an SD 455 engine because the NHRA recognized the SD 455 Grand Prix as a stock set-up for 1973. This must have been based on the information that Pontiac provided at the beginnig of the 1973 model year stating that the Super Duty was going to be available on the GP, therefore Clegg's car was able to run in the super stock class. An SD 455 Grand Prix would have been a very classy muscle car. Too bad they didn't produce any these cars, they would be worth a ton now.

  #64  
Old 03-14-2007, 09:55 PM
goquick's Avatar
goquick goquick is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 2,905
Default

Jim; The one my neighbor's GM car to drive had Rally wheels. I remember it very well. Also had a very nice healhty exhaust tone too. I am sure it would have had the RAIV style spec cam. The car idled like a 455 with a RAIV cam. My brother also said the car had no vin number, just a GM I.D. manufacturors tag in that spot.

  #65  
Old 03-14-2007, 10:10 PM
J.C.you's Avatar
J.C.you J.C.you is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: moccasin bayou, Louisiana
Posts: 4,794
Default

just knowing human nature, when it comes to something a person wants that has some influence, rules get bent and orders sometimes are not followed. from what i have read about the man, Delorean did this time and time again with the GM brass on different projects......

__________________


1963 Cat SD Clone (old school) streeter
1964 GTO post coupe, tripower, 4speed (build)
1965 GTO 389 tripower, 4 speed, driver
1966 GTO dragcar
1966 GTO Ragtop
1969 Tempest ET clone street/strip
1969 GTO Judge RA lll, auto
1969 GTO limelight Conv. 4speed go and show (sold)
1970 GP SSJ
1970 GTO barn find..TLB…390 horse?….yeh, 390
1972 GTO 455 HO, 4 speed, (build)
1973 Grand Safari wagon, 700hp stoplight sleeper
525ci DCI & 609ci LM V head builds
  #66  
Old 03-14-2007, 10:23 PM
fiedlerh's Avatar
fiedlerh fiedlerh is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,257
Default

I think most agree that up to three SD-455 engineering mule A-bodies may have been built, but then dismantled & destroyed with no known survivors. Common sense and some documentation tells us that none were built in production since it was not available as an option, and thus there would have been no parts to supply the assembly line. There would have been many other specific parts required besides the engine.

To say that none of us were around then is incorrect. Jack Hoffman tried to order one in 1973 and the original owner of my car tried in 1974. People like Tom Goad and John Sawruk were at GM at the time and may remember more.

__________________
http://www.pontiacpower.org/
  #67  
Old 03-14-2007, 10:37 PM
J.C.you's Avatar
J.C.you J.C.you is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: moccasin bayou, Louisiana
Posts: 4,794
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiedlerh
I think most agree that up to three SD-455 engineering mule A-bodies may have been built, but then dismantled & destroyed with no known survivors.

To say that none of us were around then is incorrect. Jack Hoffman tried to order one in 1973 and the original owner of my car tried in 1974. People like Tom Goad and John Sawruk were at GM at the time and may remember more.
i submit then that Tom Goad or John Sawruk post on the board of their beliefs. Until then, all jabbering is just that, cyber lip flapping, myself included.hehe....

__________________


1963 Cat SD Clone (old school) streeter
1964 GTO post coupe, tripower, 4speed (build)
1965 GTO 389 tripower, 4 speed, driver
1966 GTO dragcar
1966 GTO Ragtop
1969 Tempest ET clone street/strip
1969 GTO Judge RA lll, auto
1969 GTO limelight Conv. 4speed go and show (sold)
1970 GP SSJ
1970 GTO barn find..TLB…390 horse?….yeh, 390
1972 GTO 455 HO, 4 speed, (build)
1973 Grand Safari wagon, 700hp stoplight sleeper
525ci DCI & 609ci LM V head builds
  #68  
Old 03-14-2007, 10:54 PM
Brian Baker's Avatar
Brian Baker Brian Baker is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Posts: 17,184
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by goquick
Jim; The one my neighbor's GM car to drive had Rally wheels. I remember it very well. Also had a very nice healhty exhaust tone too. I am sure it would have had the RAIV style spec cam. The car idled like a 455 with a RAIV cam. My brother also said the car had no vin number, just a GM I.D. manufacturors tag in that spot.
Sounds like a "mule" car out of engineering. A car like that never would have gotten sold. They would let engineers and certain executives drive them around as a "perk" in order to test them in various real world driving conditions. When they were done with them, they usually got crushed, or at least stuck in GM's back storage.

__________________
Just a blind squirrel looking for a nut.
  #69  
Old 03-14-2007, 11:09 PM
Jim Rotella Jim Rotella is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Omaha, Nebr
Posts: 543
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by goquick
Jim; The one my neighbor's GM car to drive had Rally wheels. I remember it very well. Also had a very nice healhty exhaust tone too. I am sure it would have had the RAIV style spec cam. The car idled like a 455 with a RAIV cam. My brother also said the car had no vin number, just a GM I.D. manufacturors tag in that spot.
goguick,

If your neighbor's GM car was one of those three test mules, it probably did have the RA IV style cam since it would have been an early pre-production SD 455 car. That sure would have made a nice test toy to play around with.

Jim

  #70  
Old 03-14-2007, 11:14 PM
Brian Baker's Avatar
Brian Baker Brian Baker is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Posts: 17,184
Default

Never spoke with Tom Goad personally, just know from interviews I've read. He wanted to purchase the wagon from GM as equipped (ie - with the Grand Am nose and functional ram air). GM wouldn't do it, not without first removing anything from the car that identified it as a Grand Am. So technically speaking, even though it began life as a Grand Am station wagon "mule" car, it was sold to Tom as a LeMans wagon, with a LeMans front clip on it. Of course, Tom immediately converted it back to its Grand Am roots. I don't think the car was sold to him with the ram air, but he added that back onto the car as well.

Now regarding Jack Hoffman, I have spoken to him personally, therefore any information I received from him is considered "primary source" information. He ordered his car in December 1972 with the following "pertinent" options:

455-SD
4-speed manual transmission
posi rear (3.42 I believe)
NACA hood with functional ram-air
Starlight Black exterior with black vinyl top
"Saddle" interior with buckets and console

The car was delivered with the 400/4-speed sans ram-air (although it did have the NACA hood), and the posi rear I believe came with 3.23 gears (the car is equipped with power steering, power brakes, and air conditioning). Starlight Black with black vinyl top and "saddle" interior were complemented by Honeycomb rims.

Jack was present at the dealership when it was unloaded off the car hauler. He was not a happy camper when he came to the realization the car was built with the 400. This is something the dealer did not even know (or if they did, they didn't let Mr. Hoffman know before he came down to see the car). He decided to take the car anyway.

He then spent the better part of the next 18 months trying to piece together all of the parts needed to make it a "numbers correct" 455-SD. He never was able to get a correct block for it from the dealer, not in the timeframe he was working within (Feb 1973 - Sep 1974). He settled for a 455 out of a wrecked 73 GP. Same goes for the intake manifold, he had to settle for a '70 R.A. IV intake. He was able to procure the cylinder heads, rods, exhaust manifolds, and carburetor for the 455-SD over the parts counter, as well as all of the ram-air pieces (save for the lid). He found the lid through a car club friend that worked at GM. Inside the lid is housed the solenoid and flapper door to make it functional under WOT conditions. It actually more closely resembles the solenoid setup on the '74 GTO than it does the Firebird systems.

Jack only racked up 32,000 miles on the car by the time he sold it to Phil in 1996, and never drove it in the rain or snow. It still has the original chrome exhaust tips on it, just like what we commonly see on 73 GTO's. Phil still takes it to local shows when he can, but it doesn't get driven much anymore. It still sports its original paint, top, and interior. When people see the paint, they can't believe it's going on 40 years old.

Lastly, Phil let me drive the car not long after he bought it. He brought it over to my house one Saturday morning and we pulled it into the garage to whip a tune-up on it. Let me just say that if Pontiac had ever decided to release this engine for the 73 GTO, that the 73, as ugly as many people think it is, would have been the baddest GTO ever built.

__________________
Just a blind squirrel looking for a nut.
  #71  
Old 03-15-2007, 12:27 AM
goquick's Avatar
goquick goquick is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 2,905
Default

Posted by Brian Baker;Sounds like a "mule" car out of engineering. A car like that never would have gotten sold. They would let engineers and certain executives drive them around as a "perk" in order to test them in various real world driving conditions. When they were done with them, they usually got crushed, or at least stuck in GM's back storage.



From what I remember, my neighbor was not happy about that Grand Am going back to Michigan. He said that was the best car GM would ever destroy. BTW, He was here to oversee some production issues problem solving at the old St. Louis Assembly plant where the Corvettes were built. That is why they wanted him to drive a Corvette. But with 4 kids, Corvettes are not very usible!

  #72  
Old 03-15-2007, 12:30 AM
Wareagle's Avatar
Wareagle Wareagle is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,631
Smile

How about ROYAL PONTIAC--they would have got one or slipped a 455SD into a GRAND AM -- GTO or GRAND PRIX.

  #73  
Old 03-15-2007, 01:13 AM
LUST01's Avatar
LUST01 LUST01 is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Mesa Arizona
Posts: 303
Default

Royal Pontiac did not exist after 1970. When DeLorean left for Chevrolet, Ace Wilson Jr. lost interest in this special high performance dealership because Jim Wangers whom Delorean allowed to be the link with Pontiac engineering and this dealership lost this link with the new management team at Pontiac. Ace Jr. did not want to stay involved with out Jim. Wangers tryed to buy the dealership but Ace Sr. would not sell it to him because Jim was a Jew. The Wilsons end up selling the race team and the performance arm of the dealership to John DeLorean's bother George, who owned Leader Automotive, a Detroit area speed shop and sold the new car sales that just became another regular Pontiac dealership.

Matt


Last edited by LUST01; 03-15-2007 at 01:28 AM.
  #74  
Old 03-15-2007, 02:13 AM
Wareagle's Avatar
Wareagle Wareagle is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,631
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LUST01
Royal Pontiac did not exist after 1970. When DeLorean left for Chevrolet, Ace Wilson Jr. lost interest in this special high performance dealership because Jim Wangers whom Delorean allowed to be the link with Pontiac engineering and this dealership lost this link with the new management team at Pontiac. Ace Jr. did not want to stay involved with out Jim. Wangers tryed to buy the dealership but Ace Sr. would not sell it to him because Jim was a Jew. The Wilsons end up selling the race team and the performance arm of the dealership to John DeLorean's bother George, who owned Leader Automotive, a Detroit area speed shop and sold the new car sales that just became another regular Pontiac dealership.

Matt
Thanks for the info-did not know that they were out of it that early . I've read though that Leader Auto. put together some fast poncho's.

  #75  
Old 03-15-2007, 02:57 AM
goquick's Avatar
goquick goquick is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 2,905
Default

I might be thinking of another shop, but didn't Leader co-sponser Milt in the later 71 or 72 Royal SS Firebird?

  #76  
Old 03-15-2007, 07:44 AM
Brian Baker's Avatar
Brian Baker Brian Baker is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Posts: 17,184
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wareagle
How about ROYAL PONTIAC--they would have got one or slipped a 455SD into a GRAND AM -- GTO or GRAND PRIX.
I think by 1973, Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac was "dead", but even still, this would be a DEALER INSTALLED engine and that's not what we're discussing here.

__________________
Just a blind squirrel looking for a nut.
  #77  
Old 03-15-2007, 08:35 AM
uneasyrider's Avatar
uneasyrider uneasyrider is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Benton City, WA
Posts: 2,518
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Baker
No. If one exists, current evidence concludes it was not factory built.
There's really all that needs to be said right there. Simple and too the point.

__________________
Uneasyrider
“To find yourself, think for yourself.”
― Socrates
“The unexamined life is not worth living.”
― Socrates
“Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something.”
― Plato
  #78  
Old 03-15-2007, 08:58 AM
J.C.you's Avatar
J.C.you J.C.you is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: moccasin bayou, Louisiana
Posts: 4,794
Talking re sd car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by uneasyrider
There's really all that needs to be said right there. Simple and too the point.
disagree, wouldn't stand in any court of law. go quick is the only one that came close to any evidence of seeing a sd car......... and he said he saw one. how can someone make any other conclusion?

__________________


1963 Cat SD Clone (old school) streeter
1964 GTO post coupe, tripower, 4speed (build)
1965 GTO 389 tripower, 4 speed, driver
1966 GTO dragcar
1966 GTO Ragtop
1969 Tempest ET clone street/strip
1969 GTO Judge RA lll, auto
1969 GTO limelight Conv. 4speed go and show (sold)
1970 GP SSJ
1970 GTO barn find..TLB…390 horse?….yeh, 390
1972 GTO 455 HO, 4 speed, (build)
1973 Grand Safari wagon, 700hp stoplight sleeper
525ci DCI & 609ci LM V head builds
  #79  
Old 03-15-2007, 09:09 AM
uneasyrider's Avatar
uneasyrider uneasyrider is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Benton City, WA
Posts: 2,518
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Baker
No. If one exists, current evidence concludes it was not factory built.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.C.you
disagree, wouldn't stand in any court of law. go quick is the only one that came close to any evidence of seeing a sd car......... and he said he saw one. how can someone make any other conclusion?
I understand what you are saying but I think the point in this statement is NOT (read all the other things I've posted about this above) that there wasn't one made but that going on pure paper work the factory says they never were built. As I pointed out way back I personally think it is possable that they very well could have been made. I don't think everything that the automakers did and are doing now is perfectly documented but in a court of law they would look at the paper work and the eyewitness statements and the preponderance of evidence at the moment sways toward they weren't built. That only means that until VIN's and documents are found proof positive lies with the car owner. Or if you had some heavy hitter like John Delorean or Jim Wagners writting in their memoirs they were built then that would be a BIG weight in the cars favor. I guess what I'm saying is I'm not saying anyone is lieing that says they have seen one it's just that if you go on the documents the factory says thay didn't and that's all. And as I said I personally think they could have been made when I look at my personal experience with the differences between paper work and the real world.

__________________
Uneasyrider
“To find yourself, think for yourself.”
― Socrates
“The unexamined life is not worth living.”
― Socrates
“Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something.”
― Plato

Last edited by uneasyrider; 03-15-2007 at 09:29 AM.
  #80  
Old 03-15-2007, 10:41 AM
Brian Baker's Avatar
Brian Baker Brian Baker is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Glen Burnie, MD USA
Posts: 17,184
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.C.you
disagree, wouldn't stand in any court of law. go quick is the only one that came close to any evidence of seeing a sd car......... and he said he saw one. how can someone make any other conclusion?
Please tell me you understand the difference between a "mule" car built by engineering with a non-standard VIN number never intended to be sold to the general public and one that rolls off the assembly line. There is too much evidence at this time that indicates there never was an A or G body car in '73 that rolled off the assembly line with a SD-455 in it.

__________________
Just a blind squirrel looking for a nut.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:03 AM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017