[GTOWAGON]

if pontiac had extra 455 sd's they would have just sold them as replacement or crate engines i remember when my dad had to get rods replaced in his 73 sd he had to provide the vin number to get a set and they wanted the old ones back.

[77 Canamman]

Did Pontiac ever have a police only engine?

I can believe that SD-455 A body could have been built and delivered, especially if a exec was involved, and they already had a white test car made. Anything is possible...However, I still won't believe it was built until I see a copy of the window sticker.

[Brian Baker]

Window sticker is not good enough...they can be faked, and many were when reproduction companies made them popular 12-15 years ago, with people adding options to their cars that weren't originally equipped as such.

A VIN will remove all doubt once the PHS documentation is checked.

[fiedlerh]

No one has ever presented an X-code 1973 A-body VIN that has been PHS verified.

[LUST01]

Uneasyrider, I will give you two senareos for your weird Toyota. For some reason the Japanese goverenment only allows engines to run for so many miles before they have to be replaced due to there emision laws. Most of these cars are scraped. The ricer boys found out about this and started having these JDM motors (usually the entire front clip) shipped over here to the US. A lot of time these engines are unique to the Japanese market and produce more power then the engines offered in the states. A good example of this is the installion of a Nissan Siliva SR15 motor (I think thats the models name) in a 240SX. With the right stuff, a Siliva motor can make well over 500hp. The second case is a posibilty of someone in the US military being stationed oversea getting the car shipped back to the US. This is not allways allowed but has happened.

Matt

[LUST01]

As for Pontiac letting a few ringers slip out at the end of the model year. Not very likely. Pontiac was punished by the EPA in 1973 for there EGR timer that shut off the EGR after a few minutes of opperation. All there engines had to be recertified at mid year because of this. The recertified engines lacked this cleaver little divice and were painted a different color. The 455 SD was very touchy with passing the emissions standard in the first place and Pontiac had to change the cam they wanted to use for one that would pass the emission standards. The 455 SD that was listed at 310 hp was never released to the public. This was the 455 SD that used a special version of the RA IV cam. I read somewhere that the main reason the 455 SD was not used on A-bodies was that the more efficent true dual exhaust on the A-bodies did not pass the EPA drive by noise standards and by this time late in the 73 model year, Pontiac thru in the towel and released the motor only in the F-body. With all the crap Pontiac went thru with the EPA in 1973, they weren't about to release a car that did not have EPA aproval.

Matt

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by LUST01

I read somewhere that the main reason the 455 SD was not used on A-bodies was that the more efficent true dual exhaust on the A-bodies did not pass the EPA drive by noise standards and by this time late in the 73 model year, Pontiac thru in the towel and released the motor only in the F-body. With all the crap Pontiac went thru with the EPA in 1973, they weren't about to release a car that did not have EPA aproval.

Matt

Never heard that one before, but it's plausible. I do know it's the reason why the ram-air system was never released as a factory installed option, however, some parts of the system did sneak out through the parts counter at dealerships. Jack Hoffman was able to purchase every ram-air part he needed over the counter, save for the lid that fit over the air filter pan and mated to the hood...that part apparently was never released over the parts counter.

[goquick]

And people wondor why i hate the epa. The SD455 with at least 10.5 to 1 compression should have been the standard engine in the GTO and Trans Am. Of course I would have made a higher compression version with a solid cam avlible too.

[uneasyrider]

Originally Posted by LUST01

...A good example of this is the installion of a Nissan Siliva SR15 motor (I think thats the models name) in a 240SX. With the right stuff, a Siliva motor can make well over 500hp. The second case is a posibilty of someone in the US military being stationed oversea getting the car shipped back to the US. This is not allways allowed but has happened.

Matt

Cool! I'd love to get my hands on one!

Good point about the EPA watch dogs. I had forgotten about how close they were eyeballing them then. My cousin has a '73 351CJ Mach I and it has the NASA hood but in never came with a functional ram air setup because Ford hadn't gotten that combo passed through the EPA's tests. There were funtional RA 'Stang's but no 351CJ RA's from what he can tell. People have converted them to RA's but I guess they never came that way.

As far a the "Police" engine in the GP I put quotes around the word for a reason. I hear "Police engine" used by people to desribe one off factory engines and that's what a lot of people refered to them as back when I was a kid. Not technically correct all the time though and I have no idea what the engine was it's just one of those stories that you hear about the wierd fast car the guy bought off the lot that wasn't supposed to have that engine in it. I think that there is some truth to these stories myself. I think that most were dealer installed but I'm sure there were a few that slipped out of the factory for whatever reason with special engines in them. The earlier you go back in the Muscle Car era the more likely the story is true in my opinion because of the tighting controls on the industry as time went on. I still say that even in the early '70's (up to say '74) there could have been some screwing around and someone with "pull" ordered something they wanted and they got it and the fact human nature being what it is the path of least resistance can lead to things being over looked. The funny thing is that sometimes it isn't even the guy with "pull" odering something. Some factory guys get together and build a car for a buddy on the QT. Sometimes the little guy is the "insider". Someone back in 1971 in the warehouse that knows there is a RAIV setting on the shelf still and saying "No one will miss that." A few guys get together and figure out how to get "Bob's" early prodution '71 TA that's coming down gets the line a late run RAIV on "accident". I'm just speculating. The fact is that the legends will persist until someone can PROVE "it" came that way. So these one off rides that might exist out there might be overlooked as post production installs and bought at a bargan to pull the engine out of because "It never came that way". Who knows but it's fun to speculate.

[Jim Rotella]

The cold air induction system for the '73 Grand Am and GTO was most likely dropped from the option list due to drive-by noise standards. A November '72 Road Test article on the infamous white SD 455 Grand Am test mule mentions that due to the cold air intake, a "very audible sound" could be heard when the gas petal was depressed.

In 1973, with a limited amount of Super Duty motors available, Pontiac saw fit to certify only one model for the SD 455. In 1973, PMD deemed the Firebird to be their high performance line, which made it the logical choice for the SD engine. With that in mind, the SD 455 Grand Am, Grand Prix, and Lemans plan was dropped. It's too bad that happened because those models would have made some very interesting cars

Jim

[uneasyrider]

Originally Posted by Jim Rotella

The cold air induction system for the '73 Grand Am and GTO was most likely dropped from the option list due to drive-by noise standards. A November '72 Road Test article on the infamous white SD 455 Grand Am test mule mentions that due to the cold air intake, a "very audible sound" could be heard when the gas petal was depressed.

In 1973, with a limited amount of Super Duty motors available, Pontiac saw fit to certify only one model for the SD 455. In 1973, PMD deemed the Firebird to be their high performance line, which made it the logical choice for the SD engine. With that in mind, the SD 455 Grand Am, Grand Prix, and Lemans plan was dropped. It's too bad that happened because those models would have made some very interesting cars

Jim

I forgot, there was an artical last year in HHP with that SD Formula that had the TA hood because it was the only induction system that had been certified. That was a cool car. Here's one for 'ya. I had a step aunt that had a 1965 Thunderbird with a 427 NASCAR side oiler in it. It was more then likely a dealer install and it's an FE block so it wouldn't be any real work to put it in the car but it sure looked like it had always been there. Oh how I would have loved to gotten that car! Man that was cool with that gold 427 with the NASCAR 427 on the valve covers. I never got to ride in it but I guess it was one hot SOB.

[Badbird69]

Okay, here's my one-off story.
Back in December of 1968, a good friend of mine bought a '66 Dodge Coronet 4-door Hemi 4-speed off a dealer's used car lot. Yep, it was the real deal with all the good stuff: The 18-spline Hemi 4-speed transmission, the Dana rearend, the heavy duty suspension and brakes and even came with Goodyear blue line tires. It was probably the greatest street racer ever produced.
I bought it from him in 1971 and continued it's street racing legacy until I missed second gear once too often and broke the skirt out of a piston. I got married in 1974 and parted the car out out buy our first house. (Just shoot me)
I later found it and bought it back in 1981. It is now in the hands of another friend who is a Huge Mopar collector and is on a first name basis with Mopar numbers guru Galen Govier.
They have determined that Chrysler built four or five '66 Dodge Coronet Hemi 4-door cars with automatics. (Don Garlits has a white one in his museum). However, they only built ONE 4-door 4-speed car!!

If I knew then what I know now................

And yes, I still have a copy of the VIN and a copy of the build sheet from under the back seat.

[GTOWAGON]

Originally Posted by Badbird69

Okay, here's my one-off story.
Back in December of 1968, a good friend of mine bought a '66 Dodge Coronet 4-door Hemi 4-speed off a dealer's used car lot. Yep, it was the real deal with all the good stuff: The 18-spline Hemi 4-speed transmission, the Dana rearend, the heavy duty suspension and brakes and even came with Goodyear blue line tires. It was probably the greatest street racer ever produced.
I bought it from him in 1971 and continued it's street racing legacy until I missed second gear once too often and broke the skirt out of a piston. I got married in 1974 and parted the car out out buy our first house. (Just shoot me)
I later found it and bought it back in 1981. It is now in the hands of another friend who is a Huge Mopar collector and is on a first name basis with Mopar numbers guru Galen Govier.
They have determined that Chrysler built four or five '66 Dodge Coronet Hemi 4-door cars with automatics. (Don Garlits has a white one in his museum). However, they only built ONE 4-door 4-speed car!!

If I knew then what I know now................

And yes, I still have a copy of the VIN and a copy of the build sheet from under the back seat.

This story I believe to be 100% Correct in 1966 due to the NASCAR rules dodge would put a hemi in any 2 door 4 door or wagon. There is one of the wagons running around LI with a factory hemi, The owner was a racer in the 60's and bought it for a tow car. Thius was all to sell enuf HEMI's to make the NASCAR officials happy.

[Brian Baker]

Lynn, I know you've been reading this...so where did your SS-Ford buddy go?

[sdbob]

From the stories I've read some of Pontiac management did not want this engine.It seems only through the efforts of Herb Adams and others that this engine got installed at all.Some of the mgm were not car guys.The question I had why was air conditioning used on this engine? It was basically a race engine.Mgm wanted some of their money back from development?I ordered mine in Nov 1973 and waited till March 74 to get it and the dealer had connections but still was worried the car would not be built.I knew in Feb of 74 when my buddy Phil got his that chances were good I'd get mine.Also when ordering the rods you could only order 6 and thast with a vin number.So my buddy Jim who worked at the dealership used mine and Phils vin to get the necessary rods for the RAV GTO dirt track car.I hope that Grand Am is legit it would be neat. I have given some of you dyno sheets of the original development engine just to share with others the one engine had 11.84 compression and 456.08 cu in.The carb was an 850 holley 78/74,83/85 rear jets.On an edelbrock intake with struts,JR 2 1/8 headers 041 cam 100/110 cl.This engine made 439hp at 4800 and 453 at 5600 and 6000.Peak torque was 481 at 4800 max torque was 517 at 3600.At the bottom of the sheet it says'Killer set up,Rat eater'.One other engine had 8.96 compression with a 300/310 cam similar other carb intake made 463 hp at 5200 and 530 ibft torque at 3600.These engineers were something to develop an engine like that.

[LUST01]

"I read somewhere that the main reason the 455 SD was not used on A-bodies was that the more efficent true dual exhaust on the A-bodies did not pass the EPA drive by noise standards and by this time late in the 73 model year, Pontiac thru in the towel and released the motor only in the F-body." I think I read this in a 1986/1987 issue of HPP. I think Jim Mattison had a column back then and in one issue he wrote about the 455 SD program and he stated that this was one of the reasons that the killed the 455 SD a-body. I keep all my old muscle car mags and will try to find the issue were this is stated when I get a chance.

Matt

[Jim Rotella]

LUST01,
You might be right about the exhaust problem, but I would think that the true dual exhaust system of the A-body cars would be more quiet as well as more efficient than the transverve mounted F-boby muffler system. The original stock Firebird SD455 exhaust systems were pretty loud right from the factory despite the fact that the early cars were fitted with resonators.


sdbob,
Pontiac planners estimated that 40% of the SD cars would be ordered with A/C which is the reason why they cancelled the proposed black finned aluminum valve covers. These valve covers were taller than the stock covers and would not work with the A/C brackets. My guess is that the 40% estimate was based on the knowledge that the A & G body cars were to get the Super Duty engine also.

Jim

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

If you own all the factory paper work, order form to receiving documents including original bill of sale and window sticker, and you ordered, waited, and received the car, why would you need anyone else to validate you?

His insurance company says if he publishes the VIN, he could be liable for the insurance fraud that comes up due to the VIN since he was paid for the theft.

He said if you guys want to wager sufficient cash, and can find a way for him to document it, like driving to Lyons, IL, he will show you the official documentation that is irrefutable. Order form, receipt, window sticker. He said he could scan the original window sticker, but due to the insurance liability he must block the VIN.

Lynn

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD

His insurance company says if he publishes the VIN, he could be liable for the insurance fraud that comes up due to the VIN since he was paid for the theft.

Lynn

Lynn...that's the biggest load of sh!t I've heard in quite a while. If someone were to produce a '73 Grand-Am with the purported VIN as your SS-Ford friend, he would be able to reclaim his stolen property. Worse case scenario would be him having to repay the insurance company for their compensating him 30 years ago, but after all of this time, I doubt they would make much of a fuss over it. I can't believe you fell for that sh!t.

[GTOWAGON]

I have to get my boots it's getting deep in here