[Poncho60]

Pontiac's Nascar attempt was ill fated, huh. Seems like they did damn good until GM slammed the door.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by Poncho60

Pontiac's Nascar attempt was ill fated, huh. Seems like they did damn good until GM slammed the door.

How was their record during the muscle car era after the '63 Catalinas were retired? I think it's accurate to say the RAV 366 CID Nascar engine program was ill- fated for many reasons.

[Sirrotica]

It all depends what years your talking about, how their record was. When JGR was racing with Bobby LaBonte and Tony Stewart as their drivers, and they were fielding Pontiacs, it wasn't bad, 3 national championships were captured by JGR. Of course that was with corporate engines. From 57-63 their record was pretty damn good also, so it's all relevant to what time period.

If you're only discussing Stratostreak powered cars in the late 60s, and early 70s a few privateer funded Pontiac teams with virtually no factory support, it was dismal. The few AMC teams with some factory backing did better. There was no way a privateer could be anything more than a car to fill the field during that time. By the early 60s if you didn't have some type of factory tie in, you were an, also ran.

We had a local guy that ran dirt tracks near my home town, that ran a 65 Catalina, with a 421, at Daytona in 1965. His name was Johnny Ditch, car number was U2. He made it into one of the film reels before the race, but I don't believe he even finished the race. No factory tie in, just a privateer that thought he had a chance to win the Daytona 500. His chances were about a million to one. At least he can say he qualified for the Daytona 500, and at least started the race.

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

I'll be 70 in January, been playing with Pontiacs since 1970, when I graduated from high school, and started my chosen profession as a mechanic. Please don't mistake me as a damn fool that doesn't know my ass from 3rd base.

I assume the car/engine ran better than 12 seconds, the guy in the video said, as soon as you had a car running 12 seconds the rods broke. Lots of difference between a 12 second car, and a old pro stock car. I'm not so naïve, I know full well when you're running a flat out race engine, you're not going to run cast rods in it. I'm well aware of the limits of Pontiac cast rods, but they are not so brittle that as soon as a car breaks into the 12s, they fold like a lawn chair. As a matter of fact Pontiac strengthened the big end of them in 1967 by adding an extra strengthening rib to the upper portion of the big end, previous rods don't have that rib.

I ran a dirt track claimer class for $225, (67 GTO in the second picture in my signature pictures in victory lane) I wasn't going to chance someone claiming my car for $225 with forged rods in it, so I made do with prepped post 66 cast rods with good bolts. Engine ran in that car for 2 years, and when I sold the car, I sold it to a guy that put it in a 68 Firebird street car.

Moving up a class 2 years later is when I was going to build a 455 with RA IV heads, the forged 455 SD rods were going into that engine.

The rods you describe sound like RA V rods, they were forged, but still not as strong as they looked. They looked like they'd hold up well, but whether they weren't heat treated properly I'm not sure. I believe McCarthy's book said they really didn't hold up that well, from what I remember, my book was loaned to someone back in the 80s, and I never had it returned.

Pontiac did have rods that went to the race teams that were supported out the back door, but you couldn't go to the parts department of the local dealer and buy them. The only good rods that were available to the public were the 455 SD rods, and you could only buy 4 at a time, and you had to have the VIN for an SD T/A to buy 4 of them. That policy was later relaxed, and full sets were available, I still have 8 NOS SD rods in my garage that I bought from Jack Shaw Pontiac in the late 70s through a friend, same friend that never returned my book. Those forged rods were tested for hardness as there was a rumor that some of the SD rods weren't properly heart treated, so I wanted to know before I used them in that 455, that they weren't from a bad batch.

Now in your eyes, am I qualified to speak about Pontiac rods, and their inherent strength now?

M
These were not RAV rods . They were the same as an early SD Rod . They’ve been mentioned in a few books including angels and mcarthys book, I’ve posted that elsewhere on this site .

I’ll look for info to post. Cast rods were always Pontiacs week link junk absolute junk but cars have run into the 11s on them if they were prepped right

This is what they looked like

[steve25]

In a way the cast rods are there own worst enemy since they are so heavy up at the pin end.

[sdbob]

I wonder what kind of money Pontiac made for GM over the years? Thinking about the overall styling,performance,comfort etc I think Pontiac Engineers were very smart. The metallurgy on those cast rods and cranks now seem very intelligent-cost- intended use. In the 60s it seemed the cast rods were bad for any high rpm use esp extended like round d round. However guys running drag race stockers seemed to do well. In a way the events of today I'm glad Pontiac isnt around. They showed the way back when. That last car -G8 is a beautiful car. Just my thinking.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by steve25

In a way the cast rods are there own worst enemy since they are so heavy up at the pin end.

Years ago I was ripping on cast rods. Then Truman Fields answered one of my posts with his cast rod engine in the 10s.
Showed a pick of a bent but not broken cast rod too.
Nice guy, even offered to teach me a few things if I ever showed up at a national event.
I would not think of arguing with that man. I would have been great to meet him and learn all the Pontiac stuff he was willing to share.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

M
These were not RAV rods . They were the same as an early SD Rod . They’ve been mentioned in a few books including angels and mcarthys book, I’ve posted that elsewhere on this site .

I’ll look for info to post. Cast rods were always Pontiacs week link junk absolute junk but cars have run into the 11s on them if they were prepped right

This is what they looked like

WOW, 9 months later, musta been doing a lot of research.....

I know you have one of Stephens Pontiac old race cars, but the guys that did the engine builds aren't the ones telling the story. Stephens had factory engineering connections. Am I supposed to be impressed?

I'm not a drag racer, never have been, I like race cars that turn corners.

When I raced, I was a nobody, I had what I could scrounge, get free from my sponsors, or pay for after taking care of a wife, and child, and paying my mortgage on my mechanics paycheck. Racecars are the bottom of the list for getting fed.

I know exactly what I've been able to do with my own race cars, with low dollar investments, hard work (building parts, instead of buying them), and a steep learning curve. I wasn't in any national magazines with my racing efforts, and didn't have a back door to Pontiac special parts that came out the back door, but couldn't be purchased at a parts counter.

I won more than my fair share of dirt track races as well as SCCA season title for running my local regions autocross event with my 1973 455 Trans Am, cast rods too.

I sponsored a few local racers, and built engines for dirt cars, street cars, as well as drag cars. I may not be famous, but I sure beat plenty of brand X cars back in the 70s and 80s. I didn't throw in the towel because it was cheaper, and easier, to put a chevy in it. I stayed true to the Stratostreak V8.

Every race engine, and high performance street engine I built, and raced, had cast rods in it. How in the heck did I ever do it with cast iron rods? Popular opinion says it couldn't happen, but I still have probably 20 trophies tucked away in my garage, (they're all for winning races, there were no participation trophies given out) and a lot of pictures tucked away, that says it did.

I'd have loved to been able to have forged rods back when I raced, it wasn't in the cards, or my race budget. I raced the same engines for 2 seasons in my 67 400 GTO, and 3 seasons in my 4 inch stroke 428 Grand Prix. Both engines were still running fine with cast rods, and were pulled before the cars went to the crusher.

I sold the 400 and, installed it in a 68 Firebird street car, the 428 is sitting in storage 40 some years later. Disclaimer; No cast rods were harmed in any engines, in this post....

Carry on, I'm out..................

[scott70]

I raced 1/8th mile weekly from mid 80's to 2011 with only pontiacs. 400s and 455s. Only when i built my last 455 did I go with good rods and turned that one 6500 rpms.. Always used stock cranks. Never damaged a rod or crank the whole time.
Bought a 70 lemans once off someones lawn. 350 2 barrel. Got it home and noticed it had a quarter sized hole right through the oil pan.

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

How was their record during the muscle car era after the '63 Catalinas were retired? I think it's accurate to say the RAV 366 CID Nascar engine program was ill- fated for many reasons.

If they didn’t do well it’s only because daddy GM stifled them .
The RAII GTO and RAIV firebird of Stephens Pontiac cleaned house at most tracks as did many other stocker Pontiacs in 68 69 when pro stock got big in 70 GMs racing ban was enforced hard by GM on Pontiac but wasn’t the case with CHEVY they fed those CHEVY racers a healthy diet of race parts and COPO cars w aluminum engines. Stephens was the ONE lone team racing pro stock w a Pontiac in 71 ! There were few parts to be had and absolutely NO DATA to share with other teams . You can’t underestimate the value of information from other teams

In 63 when Pontiac embarrassed all the other makes in Daytona GM decided Pontiac was DONE they would never ever overshadow the vette and camaro again.

If GM had allowed a 428 version of the RAV as was already built , w the V heads and the dual quad high rise intake nothing would have touched it in stock and super stock. All that data would have fed the pro stockers and hood rods would have made it possible for them to win against factory backed teams w hemis and alluminum 427s But daddy GM wouldn’t allow it

I own a RAIV firebird that’s as raced in 69 and a pro stock RAV engine w dual quads. I know the two drivers of these cars and I know the story of how GM shut them down when word came out they had an aluminum block RAV and how GM had a hissy fit and kicked them
Out of the racing program for letting that information get out

But it really wasn’t that the info got to the public. It was that GM brass found out that Tom nell and herb adams were helping them w these pieces.
The article is in Jan 72 rodder and super stock

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

WOW, 9 months later, musta been doing a lot of research.....

I know you have one of Stephens Pontiac old race cars, but the guys that did the engine builds aren't the ones telling the story. Stephens had factory engineering connections. Am I supposed to be impressed?

I'm not a drag racer, never have been, I like race cars that turn corners.

When I raced, I was a nobody, I had what I could scrounge, get free from my sponsors, or pay for after taking care of a wife, and child, and paying my mortgage on my mechanics paycheck. Racecars are the bottom of the list for getting fed.

I know exactly what I've been able to do with my own race cars, with low dollar investments, hard work (building parts, instead of buying them), and a steep learning curve. I wasn't in any national magazines with my racing efforts, and didn't have a back door to Pontiac special parts that came out the back door, but couldn't be purchased at a parts counter.

I won more than my fair share of dirt track races as well as SCCA season title for running my local regions autocross event with my 1973 455 Trans Am, cast rods too.

I sponsored a few local racers, and built engines for dirt cars, street cars, as well as drag cars. I may not be famous, but I sure beat plenty of brand X cars back in the 70s and 80s. I didn't throw in the towel because it was cheaper, and easier, to put a chevy in it. I stayed true to the Stratostreak V8.

Every race engine, and high performance street engine I built, and raced, had cast rods in it. How in the heck did I ever do it with cast iron rods? Popular opinion says it couldn't happen, but I still have probably 20 trophies tucked away in my garage, (they're all for winning races, there were no participation trophies given out) and a lot of pictures tucked away, that says it did.

I'd have loved to been able to have forged rods back when I raced, it wasn't in the cards, or my race budget. I raced the same engines for 2 seasons in my 67 400 GTO, and 3 seasons in my 4 inch stroke 428 Grand Prix. Both engines were still running fine with cast rods, and were pulled before the cars went to the crusher.

I sold the 400 and, installed it in a 68 Firebird street car, the 428 is sitting in storage 40 some years later. Disclaimer; No cast rods were harmed in any engines, in this post....

Carry on, I'm out..................

Well I’m
A lot like you. I worked as a home builder and paid my own way into drag racing. But I can tell you definitively that cast rods suck. You may have been able to get by, and that’s good but they still suck. I run a 2 bolt block in my turbo application , I run a cast crank. I run smog heads, I make do with all the stock GM stuff I can (mostly because I find it’s better than aftermarket). Trust me I don’t spend more than I have to and most of the GM stuff is great! I can make it work just fine, one thing I will not ever use in any engine street or strip is a cast Pontiac connecting Rod . ( not w good rods so cheap today)

Now for a stock bonneville chugging along they are fine but if you’re gonna make any kind of HP forget it.
Now keep in mind even though I was a privateer I’m
Not talking about 350 HP engines if I can’t make 450+ Hp with it I’m not interested. My blueprinted but otherwise stock RAIV will make that.

Could I maybe possibly put some work into a stock cast rod and make it work , to some extent in a low Hp street engine sure I probably could. But I’d have time invested in the Rod, definitely money into new rod bolts , But to have any kind of faith in the engine I’d need a good rod , I’ve snapped off SD455 rods at 450 Hp . Right in half and I didn’t really rev my engines My turbo engine which willl make 960 hp I still shift at 5600 and I trap at about 6200 !

I wasn’t doing any research I’ve posted those rods before. . In fact the info from Mc carthys book isn’t what I listed here but it’s easy to find. Those rods were available through any parts counter in the nation . They weren’t anything super special or held aside for race dealers. You just had to know to ask for them and most people didn’t. Nunzi used to get them . HO racing used to get them .

I’m
Glad you did well w the Pontiacs and I applaud you for being able to do it w cast rods . I remember when rods were crazy expensive trust me. _
I ran cast rods back then too and won a lot of races. I also spun my share of bearings .and elongated the big ends, I’ve had 21 69 firebirds So I’ve done plenty of testing. Lmao.
My point is the weakest link for a Pontiac has always been the connecting rods I don’t think anyone will dispute that fact.

I started racing in 87 and raced every year 140 track passes a year til about 2005 when my daughter was born then I dialed it back a little til 2010 (second kid) and dialed it back even more. since then .

I’m just happy to see people race Pontiacs and enjoy Pontiacs love ‘em. Pisses me off our beloved Pontiac is gone. But that doesn’t change the fact the rods sucked. That’s an SD455 rod and a nice window I made through my oil pan! A low RPM engine too granted probably had 300 passes on those rods but still.

[sdbob]

Truman showed me how to use a feeler gauge to adjust hydraulic lifters. He had a vaccum gauge on his interior with the line going to the valley cover,never asked or got an answer. Talking to him at Norwalk several times. I know Jim Mino locally ran a 68 d port F body in stock with cast rods.

[Douglas Willinger]

Anyone have photos of these 90 cc prototype SD455 heads?

Am wondering was there ever consideration of reducing the SD455 to an SD400? The 90 cc heads on a 400 would have been perhaps about 8.5 to 1, and the shorter stroke would have allowed using the cast rods if there were supply issues with the forged rods.

If someone has a set, they MUST be reproduced.

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Why, because Chevrolet F#%@ed us every chance they had.
PONTIAC, PMD had the biggest balls in General Motors. ... 90cc SD 455 heads that even had the pressed in tubes on intakes ports. 2 sets of those heads were made, 96 casting. Whitmore had a GM tech guy bring a set to his shop and held them in his hands....
PONTIACS RULE.

[unruhjonny]

I maybe incorrect, but I thought I read that the SD455 project was started before GM corporate required the across the board compression drop - 90cc is pretty much what the 1970 #64-455 heads were.

[sdbob]

SD455 Pontiac dyno room test sheets I have dated 2970

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Douglas Willinger

Anyone have photos of these 90 cc prototype SD455 heads?

Am wondering was there ever consideration of reducing the SD455 to an SD400? The 90 cc heads on a 400 would have been perhaps about 8.5 to 1, and the shorter stroke would have allowed using the cast rods if there were supply issues with the forged rods.

If someone has a set, they MUST be reproduced.

Dan told me there were 2 sets made and he laid his hands on one set. No pics I know of.
They were 96 casting heads. Interesting that the 71 D port heads with 96 cast into them had about that cc chamber.
That engine, 4 bolt 455 block, forged rods, forged pistons N crank, SD 90cc heads, 041 cam with 1.65 rockers, aluminum intake with big Q jet would have tore it up on the street.