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Old 11-11-2022, 11:03 PM
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Default What can I learn from these lifters?

There is only a few hundred miles on these lifters after a fresh rebuild.
The 60919 cam was reused, but it has only a couple hundred more miles on it.

Here are the Crower lifters I removed today.
I am curious as to what I can learn from the wear patterns.

I realize they sit in different positions depending on the lobe, but some show circular patterns as they spin, others do not.

The one lifter had a unique striped pattern all around from the lifter bore.
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Old 11-11-2022, 11:47 PM
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A lot of issues with those lifters. They are on their way out and chances are several cam lobes are also.

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Old 11-12-2022, 01:34 AM
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Agree with Paul, those lifters look like 100,000 miles on them, not a few hundred.

New lifters have a convex surface being high in the center, lower on the edges. Everyone of those look concave (dshed) in the picture, the cam lobes have to be rounding off also. The engine has a bunch of fine powdered metal in it too from the abrasion between the cam and lifters. Not a good scenario in a fresh engine.

FWIW, I would take an oil sample from it and send it off to find out what additives (ZDDP) and at what concentration they are to find out if it's the oil that caused all 16 to wear that quickly. It wasn't just one lifter, and lobe to fail, they all failed.


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Old 11-12-2022, 03:11 AM
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Jeez those are all over the place. Kinda looks like the oil was contaminated ... at least three of them show evidence of debri between the lobe and lifter.

Actually, to me, I don't see any evidence of not spinning ... that usually leaves a wide straight band across the face of the lifter

The ones with the white'ish colored circle in the middle ... new to me, not sure what's going on there.

Looks like the new lifters were not playing nice with the used cam, cam lobes probably have issues that doomed the lifters from the get-go.

In the picture below, the lifter on the right was not spinning, note the wide dark colored rectangular band.

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Old 11-12-2022, 06:43 AM
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Your first mistake was assuming that the cam was still good!

I first would have gone through the 1.5 hour long process of putting one of the new lifters on a lobe , crank the motor over with the plugs out and have someone look to see if the lifter had spun like it should When it comes off the heel of the cam.

The block may also just plain have worn lifter bores that allow the lifter to wobble around which is a condition that keeps the lifter from spinning as it should.

This is what I believe was the cause of that lifter showing ware patterns on its side unlike the other lifters.

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Old 11-12-2022, 08:52 AM
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The motor is out now for the season.
I was fixing a pan leak and looking for the source of an intermittent knock, so no oil left to test. It looked ok in the drain pan, but I can still cut open the filter, and run the used oil through a coffee filter.

The first thing I did was check the lifter face with a straight edge, and all were still convex.

I did pick up some Johnson HyLifts last week, but after seeing this, going to a roller setup may be the smart move.

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Old 11-12-2022, 12:09 PM
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You may have enough oil in the filter to send a sample out if you really care to find out what may have happened. You might want someone to mic the lifter bores to see if they've worn beyond spec.

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Old 11-12-2022, 03:58 PM
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Are the bearings out yet? You may find embedded material in there looking at those lifter. Cut your filter open as well.

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Old 11-12-2022, 04:09 PM
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The lesson I'd learn is to switch to a roller cam. :P

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Old 11-12-2022, 05:49 PM
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I just got the block and heads back from the machine shop after an 18 month wait ( staff all preferred to sit at home and collect free government $$ during Covid)
Cam was only a year old, with few miles..
It was in the shop primarily for rust in the block, and oil consumption ( 1/2 liter every 3 fillup)

It spent the last 30 years in a pro mod with a CompCams 290B6 solid lifter race cam, trailered.to shows. Doubt it put 100 miles on it during all that time. Last time at the track was 28 years ago. Obviously that cam did not suit my car.

I can see no damage to the 60919 cam, but without a micrometer, and pulling it out, who can tell. I do have the drained oil saved, so I could have it tested, if I can find out where to send it from Toronto.

Also have an Isky 280 mega cam sitting on the shelf, if necessary.
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Old 11-12-2022, 06:00 PM
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Uncle Tony's garage did a recent video of lifter and cam failure of DD's Speed Shop's 454 Chevy. The lifter had a stripe like yours from not spinning on the cam lobe. Reason was the cam was ground with no taper on the lobe, which is needed to spin the rotor. Took out the cam and lifter, and did some damage. Defective parts, again. This kind of failure, common now, was unheard of in the 1990's and prior.

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Old 11-12-2022, 07:48 PM
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Hmm.. that's interesting. I am going to check that out.

I took a close look at the 60919's lobes today, especially those with the circular score marks and I could feel the burr on the edge of the lobe that caused it. Not sure what to do about it. Wish I had saved my lifters from before the rebuild to see if that #8 intake lifter had the same marks.

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Old 11-14-2022, 02:58 PM
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Well, this is embarrassing...but it has to be said.

The Crower lifters that went bad, was entirely due to user error. I initially set the valve lash completely wrong and ran them that way for about 20 minutes. Even after correctly setting them, I still did not realize my previous error.

Now I have to measure each lobe to see if the cam is still good...but I am fairly sure it is not, just by the sound.

On the bright side, I have an Isky 280 mega cam and a Comp 290b-6 solid cam on the shelf to choose from. Either should be a significant performance improvement over the 60919.

From now on I will be setting my initial valve lash with the valley pan off. Lesson learned the hard way.

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Old 11-14-2022, 03:34 PM
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My eyes aren't really that good and I can tell from your photo the cam lobes are trash, and probably were trash before sacrificing the new lifters. Lobes have been flattened and somewhat mushroomed. Also, are those actual dents and creases on the lobes or just reflections?

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Old 11-14-2022, 05:50 PM
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I know people say you can do it, but adding new lifters to a used flat tappet cam is inviting lifter and cam failure. Those cams are typically delivered with a somewhat rough surface finish that aids in mating the cam lobe and the lifter together. When you add new lifters to an old cam, it's less likely that the lifter will properly mate to the older cam lobe.

Add in the known issues we are seeing with lifter hardness and overall machining quality these days, it's not a wonder those lifters look the way they do after very little run time.

We all want to save some $$ where we can on our projects, but with a flat tappet cam, I'm firmly a believer that if you're doing new lifters, you better be doing a new cam and vis versa.

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Old 11-14-2022, 06:57 PM
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FWIW, I've put new lifters on old cams forever back before all the problems with metallurgy, cheap off shore parts, decreased ZDDP. Each segment of the aftermarket points fingers at the other vendors. If the cam was in good shape, I never had problems. Many times switching from standard Pontiac lifters, to anti pump up lifters, and making the valve train adjustable at the same time.

That has all changed, and I have no idea what avenue I'd choose now. The hydraulic rollers have as much problem as HFT do.



Maybe dig out my 50 plus year old Crower solid roller cam, and use it. I've run it on the street for years, without any problems.

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Old 11-14-2022, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lust4speed View Post
My eyes aren't really that good and I can tell from your photo the cam lobes are trash, and probably were trash before sacrificing the new lifters. Lobes have been flattened and somewhat mushroomed. Also, are those actual dents and creases on the lobes or just reflections?
Those are just reflections...hard to get the right angle for a clear photo with my lighting.

Here is a pic of the previous used Crowers before sending the heads and block out to machine shop.
They looked good.
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Old 11-14-2022, 11:09 PM
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I will tell you that I am learning a lot in this thread, but there's a couple of other questions.

First...what causes the lifters to spin? Is it a taper that is ground into the cam lobe, or is it that the lifters sit off center on the lobe?

Also, is there a spec for when a cam lobe is too worn, or is any wear considered too much?

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Old 11-15-2022, 02:25 AM
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Lifters have a convex bottom and cam lobes have a tapered lobe from front to back. When the tapered lobe goes flat across there is nothing to spin the lifter properly. You might get a little rotation from the lobe being offset to the lifter but the taper is necessary to working properly. At this point the wear accelerates and you end up with lifters with concave bottoms like the ones pictured. I say that the cam already had went past the wear point and the lobe had very little or no taper. The one flat tappet lifter brand you hardly ever hear of going flat is the Crower but even these will fail when installed with a worn cam. You really should still see some Parkerizing along the lobe profile which indicates that there is enough of a taper to possibly run the cam again. Of the 11 flat tappet cams I've pulled out of engines just this year prior to the rebuild, I wouldn't have put any of them back in.

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Old 11-15-2022, 02:42 AM
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After reading thread after thread about lifter and cam failures, I think the safest bet is a solid roller. Maybe one of those bushed rollers that don't have needle bearings.

https://vincentperformance.com/shop/bam-b-2030-16-bb4/

Something like this?

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