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Old 12-16-2011, 03:43 PM
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Not a problem Eric just glad you put this infor together for us to read. Thanks

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  #522  
Old 12-16-2011, 05:53 PM
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Default Mirgating South

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Originally Posted by Keith Seymore View Post
I thought birds migrated south for the winter...

(lol)
This Bird had its wings clipped a long time ago. I just put it up on jack stands. Kind of like putting it on crutches. A cover over the car. like a blanket to keep her warm. I place a drip pan under it for the only things that do migrate south are the fluids. The drip pan is kind of like a large diaper for the old war horse.

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  #523  
Old 12-17-2011, 10:32 AM
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Question transmission mechanic @ Royal Pontiac

In the early seventies, I had my '69 LeMans at Royal Pontiac to have the transmission evaluated. An older black gentleman (who was exceptionally mellow and accommodating) drove my car for the test. Do you know his name or his participation in all this hi=perf activity??

  #524  
Old 12-17-2011, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclescratch View Post
In the early seventies, I had my '69 LeMans at Royal Pontiac to have the transmission evaluated. An older black gentleman (who was exceptionally mellow and accommodating) drove my car for the test. Do you know his name or his participation in all this hi=perf activity??
No I'm sorry I do not know such a person. He problably was not there when the dealership was owned by Ace Wilson Sr.

In approximately 1970 Ace Sr. sold Royal Pontiac to Doug Spedding who put his ex Chevrolet store General Manger Bob Shaffo into the dealership. It was renamed Shaffo's Royal Pontiac. This only lasted about a year until Jim Fresard bought the dealership.

There are strong odds that it was under either Shaffo or Fresard that he was hired in and worked there.

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  #525  
Old 12-17-2011, 08:21 PM
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I found one of the first articles of the 1967 GTO 4 -speed vs Automatic. This was done the same day as the two automatics. Stock vs mild Bobcat. I postedit earlier. don't believe that article makes it clear that those are both automaatic cars.
But just look at the plate on the White GTO CN-5555 = Automatic.
CN-5556 = 4 spd. The blue car is the same in both tests.

Look closely at this article. You will see the white automatic GTO in the background facing away from you as the white CN-5556 and Blue GTO with the manufactures plate 15M-643 launch off the light.

Between this article and the two automaitcs beeing tested let the cat out of the hat! Really Bobcat!
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  #526  
Old 12-18-2011, 12:23 PM
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Default Bil Knafel's third 1966 Race Car

Another little known race car out of Bill Knafel Pontiac in 1966. A 1966 Lemans convertible Sprint OHC 6.
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  #527  
Old 12-18-2011, 01:46 PM
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Default 1967 GTO Royal Bobcat Automatic pt1

Don,
This one is for you! Here is the continuation of the 1967 GTO white and black vinyl top automatic car. Jim let Martyn Schorr and Joel Rosen go racing with it on the east coast.
It is a long article and will take two posts.

Remember I told you NOT to rely on the license plates to I.D. the cars. This car went from CN-5555 to GM-4488. Same car, new I.D.
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  #528  
Old 12-18-2011, 02:01 PM
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Default 1967 GTO Royal Bobcat Automatic pt2

Don,
Here is the continuation of the 1967 "Cars" magazine test car for Royal.

They mention Ed Eaton at National Speedway in NY. Ed Eton was Gil Kohn's business manager. Who is Gil Kohn you ask? Gil was one of Jim Wangers street racing friends from the Detroit High End club. Jim had been approached by Gil on behalf of his family to find land for Gil Kohn to build a drag strip and see about getting events there. In exchange Jim would get a piece of the action. This was Detroit Dragway. Jim got NHRA to have the Nationals at Detroit Dragway as soon as they opened in 1959. Jim only got a check for his his troubles and NO partnership. Gil went onto own or manage most of the drag strips around the country. Ed Eton, and later his son, managed all of the strips for Gil. Ending up sell them one by one at a large profit for development.
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  #529  
Old 12-18-2011, 04:34 PM
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Default December 1968 "Hot Rod" magazine Judge Test

Lets get back to some 1969 Judge stuff. Jim Wangers' proposed econo racing to take on the Road Runner called ET. John Delorean didn't want a 350 HO in a Econo GTO nor did he like the name ET.

So I give you the early "ECONO" Judge tested by "Hot Rod" magazine and published in the December 1968 issue. Look closely at the car. Post coupe, cornering lights, quarter panel Tempest/Custom S/ Lemans side marker light, tail lights, bench seat Judge strip and emblem. Remember these items.

Also remember the December 1968 "Hot Rod" magazine test pictures. Hot Rod Magazine TEST signs (doors and deck lid), braking picture and person driving.

Remember the first "Program" Judges to roll off the assmebly line were in January 1969. The test would have been late August early September to make it to press for Novmeber printing of a December issue.

Lets take a look.
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  #530  
Old 12-18-2011, 04:49 PM
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Default Coupe becomes a hard top

Now lets look at the very same December 1968 "Hot Rod" magazine issue. There is a fold out ad for the new Judge as you open the the cover.

Same coupe but how did it change. John Delorean made the decision to make the Judge an up scale "Supercar" after the test. So out came the air brushes. Now you have this ad. Suddenly a coupe becomes a hard top.

I'll show you more changes done in the GTO brochure in the next post.

Also, as Matt noted earlier, No mention of ram air III just Ram Air at 366 and Ram Air VI 370. This you now know is because of the four tube system it gives you places to bring in air. Thus Ram Air IV. Not due to the next in line of the sequnce of appearance.
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Last edited by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer; 12-18-2011 at 04:56 PM.
  #531  
Old 12-18-2011, 05:10 PM
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Default Air brushed Judge

Lets now go to a portion of the performance brochure released with GTO's and Firebirds. First the Judge that has been air brushed every where. Here is where I want you to check back to the Decemeber 1968 "Hot Rod" magazine test of the coupe. Look at the Ram Air IV air cleaner has been air brushed smaller.

Amazine how detailed an air brush can be!
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  #532  
Old 12-18-2011, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclescratch View Post
In the early seventies, I had my '69 LeMans at Royal Pontiac to have the transmission evaluated. An older black gentleman (who was exceptionally mellow and accommodating) drove my car for the test. Do you know his name or his participation in all this hi=perf activity??
Dad mentioned to me the transmission guy's name was Mack, and somehow I got the impression he was a black man.

This would have been in the early sixties, so I don't know if Mack stayed on right until the end.

K

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Seymore View Post

"Later in the summer I saw Jesse at a drag strip and he asked me if I was ready to switch to Pontiac. At this time Dave Evans and Dennis Gray from Ford were pretty active in drag racing. I had a crank at Larry Jewell's in Inkster and a block at Jack Conley's in Brighton and was building a 428 ci engine to run. When I told Jesse that I was going to stay with Ford for a while (this is a Chevrolet Die Maker who can't get a thing out of Chevrolet but could race for Ford or Pontiac) he said ok, but that he had sold the car he had been using as a demo and for me to come down the next day to see it.

"So on Monday I made my first trip to Royal Pontiac . When I got there a mechanic named 'Charlie' [Brumfield] had just finished bringing the engine up to 368 HP spec and a guy named Mack was working on the Slim Jim transmission. It was a white Catalina with a white interior and aluminum wheels. Jesse said 'it's ready for delivery, go with Mack to test it'. Being young and innocent I said ok.

"When Mack fired it up it sure did sound good. He drove to Stephenson Highway and stopped at 14 Mile Rd in front of Jim Robbins Co [it's an industrial park now; I drive past it every day ]. I have been on some rides with street racers, Jim Wangers and Dick Jesse included, but never for a ride like this. When we got back to Royal and everyone was laughing and Jesse asked how the ride was, then I knew I had just 'been had' and that racing with Royal would be a lot of fun."

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Last edited by Keith Seymore; 12-18-2011 at 05:30 PM.
  #533  
Old 12-18-2011, 06:52 PM
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Here is a print ad that has been air brushed as well. A large version of it hung in Jim Wangers' Warren office for years. He went over the changes to the Judge with me showing me the several items that had been air brushed. Along with the items that had not been in his version.

Simple things like in his picture there is a 1968 GTO interior. Many wrinkles in the front bumper. The vent window and the post had been air brushed out. (This was the post coupe). The new multi-stripe body side stripe. The cornering lights. The rear quarter side marker was changed from Ponitac Lemans arrow to GTO style. Even the interior door locks where in the 1968 location. It has been several years since I've seen the picture and when Jim told me. Jim moved to California in 1994 and his Warren office moved to a new location in 2003.

Amazing what a good touch up person can do...
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  #534  
Old 12-18-2011, 07:03 PM
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Here is something else you can never trust. From the same brochure that has the the 1968 December "Hot Rod" magazine Judge I bring you the 1969 LeMans and Firebird 350 HO cars. Look closely and you will see what looks like a hood tac on the passenger side. Look at in pictures of the engine compartment too. You will see a heater tube going to the hood scoop too.

Now if you go back to the test of Royal Pontiac's 1969 Firebird 350 HO race car you will also see this scoop on the hood.

The standard ram air for the 350 HO like the four inlet Ram Air IV option never appeared.

I hope you alos noticed that the Ram Air IV air cleaner in the prior two Judge posts had alos been air brushed to look simular to the production version. It looks like very tall foam.
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  #535  
Old 12-18-2011, 07:18 PM
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Default Motor Trend October 1968

This was the earliest test of the 1969 Ram Air IV to appear from the press evalutions done in August 1968. Last word on the 1969 GTO Lime Light green Ram Air IV. Read the article. Near the end it too talks about the second set of ram air inlets behind the grill.
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  #536  
Old 12-19-2011, 12:33 AM
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Notice in the last article posted the refered to the "Ram Air III" by the correct 1969 designation: 400 HO.

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Old 12-19-2011, 08:03 AM
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So why was the the two grille inlet tubes dropped?

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  #538  
Old 12-20-2011, 08:03 AM
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That last article is the first time I've ever read that the length and width was different between the '68 and '69 GTO....That's not right is it?

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  #539  
Old 12-30-2011, 11:37 AM
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OK, here's a question maybe Dr. Schiffer or Keith can answer. Several years ago I spoke with a gentleman who said he worked at the Pontiac factory back in the 60's. He told me that when some of the guys who worked at the factory would order GTO's they would know what day thier cars were being built. As the car was coming down the assembly line they could count back and figure out which engine was to be joined with their car later in the day. During break time or when a supervisor wasn't around they would switch the 389 for a 421 before the engine and car met downstream. The GTO got the 421 and somebody who ordered a big car with a 421 ended up with a 389. He said that this didn't happen often, but it was done. Any idea if this is true? In the past I've heard stories about poeple who purchased GTO's from original owners only to find 421's in the cars. The owners would swear they never changed engines and this is how the car came. Obviously there would never be any documentation of this.

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Old 12-30-2011, 06:09 PM
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I'd say it's a possibility.

The only thing is that the inspectors would have to be in on it, too (not just the assemblers), because they would be checking the car over to make sure it was built as specified. Also - you wouldn't need to "count back", since all of the conveyors that feed the main line would be synchronized by the daily build sequence number (or "manifest sequence number"). Lastly, there wouldn't be a big car engine displaced, per se, by this missappropriated engine - the big car would simply be built in sequence as scheduled, although the inventory would be off at the end of the month (...hmmm, how did that happen?" - lol).

I make my living following special builds down the line. I followed both of my pickups (a 1980 and a 1987) down then line when they were built, although I assure you that no tomfoolery took place!

Usually, the workers will ask "...this yours?" and, if so, they take a little extra care while you are standing there.


K

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