#481  
Old 12-10-2011, 06:43 PM
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Because the intro of the 1969 GTO Ram Air IV was such an embarrassment. People quested why they should by a Ram Air IV when a 389 Tri power Bobcat seemed faster.

Sooooo. Jim Wangers offered John Kosmala a free rebuild of his 1965 GTO 389 Tri-power for the test. How could John say No?

So I bring you 1969 GTO Ram Air IV Bobcat vs 1965 GTO 389 Tri-power Bobcat

Continued...
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  #482  
Old 12-10-2011, 06:49 PM
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Default part 2 Ram Air IV vs 389 Tri -power

More 1969 GTO Ram Air IV Bobcat vs 1965 GTO 389 Tri-power Bobcat.

Look closely at the Ram Air IV engine in these photos and its air cleaner. Remeber this engine for the Ram Air IV vs Ram Air III test. Then read the side captions in that test.
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  #483  
Old 12-10-2011, 07:08 PM
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Default 1969 Ram Air IV Bobcat vs Judge Ram Air III Bobcat

Now to show you that the 1969 Ram Air VI and Ram Air III could really perform Jim Wangers came up with this test to defend the Ram Air IV.

I hope you remembered the GTO Ram Air IV engine compartment for the last test.
Pay attention to the engine without the air cleaner they are calling the Ram Air III. If you are sharp you can see round port center exhaust port and no 48 casting. Back then we didn't know numbers...LOL

The Ram Air III Judge /aka Lime Green GTO is still wearing its four inlet air cleaner. An item that never went into production.

Continued...
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  #484  
Old 12-10-2011, 07:27 PM
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Default page 2

Last page and black and white slides from the test session.

At a later date I'll post the 1969 Judge, Ram Air III, 3 speed that had been sent to the West Coast for a multi issue "Popular Hot Rodding" magazine Royal Bobcat build up. The build up takes you from Ace Wilson's Royal Racing Team prep through the tranfer or the Royal Racing Team mail order to George Deloreans' Leader Automotive.

George ruined the mail order division of Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac called the Royal Racing Team, within a year of taking over. George had no idea of the philosophy behind the Royal Racing team's sucess was street performance and not all out race cars.
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  #485  
Old 12-10-2011, 09:16 PM
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I could be wrong but the engine with no air cleaner does not look like the Ram Air IV engine from the previous test and it does not look like the engine with the prototype Ram Air IV air cleaner. It does not have the vacuum thermal switch next to the thermostat housing like the engine with the prototype air cleaner. You can see this thermal switch in both articles with the engine with the prototype air cleaner. The Ram Air IV engine in the blue and white car as a hex plug in place of the thermal switch. This engine has something else here. Hard to tell what it is. It is hard to tell from the scan but it appears to have a 1 piece intake manifold. Is it a Ram Air II engine? The engine does not seem to the engine of either GTO used in the Super Stock magazine article.

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  #486  
Old 12-11-2011, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LUST01 View Post
I could be wrong but the engine with no air cleaner does not look like the Ram Air IV engine from the previous test and it does not look like the engine with the prototype Ram Air IV air cleaner. It does not have the vacuum thermal switch next to the thermostat housing like the engine with the prototype air cleaner. You can see this thermal switch in both articles with the engine with the prototype air cleaner. The Ram Air IV engine in the blue and white car as a hex plug in place of the thermal switch. This engine has something else here. Hard to tell what it is. It is hard to tell from the scan but it appears to have a 1 piece intake manifold. Is it a Ram Air II engine? The engine does not seem to the engine of either GTO used in the Super Stock magazine article.

Matt,
Good start. Now keep going back to the prior two articles of the 1969 GTO Ram Air IV Royal Bobcat vs 1965 GTO 389 Bobcat and Press intro of the 1969 GTO Ram Air IV. There is a two peice intake in those articles. Look at the heater hose brakets for routing (one is on the inner wheel well, the other on the front of the engine). One round port car has a heater hose the other with the braket on the wheel well has a caped water pump out let. One has a pluged hole for the thermal vaccum switch vs temperature sensor and a power brake booster in one and not in the other. Not to mention the spark plug wires. One picture has the WX sticker on the front of the block the other tested it is missing.

Also look at the firewall. Two cars have a vacuum line and check valve going vertical. One you can't find it. Where did the third car Ram Air car come from? As you said probably a 1968 GTO Ram Air II with no vacuum booster for the brakes, no vacuum line on the firewall or infron of the car from intake to carb. Even my black and white slides from the strip you will be able to see the thick booster hose just off screen and a thin vacuum line for the front bottom of the air cleaner from the intake leaning on the fron tof the carb. No vacuum lines can be seen on what we think is the 1968 Ram Air II.

Remember the two comparison magazine tests had been done on the same cold day. Just look at the black and white slides from the drag strip I also provided. Some one screwed things up by throwing in a RAII. But it they were still expecting the big air cleaner for the Ram Air IV that never happened. It was just to cover their asses when and if it came. The big air cleaner stayed with the Lime light green/Judge from press Ram Air IV to Judge Ram Air III and did not go on the Crystal Turquoise Ram Air IV Bobcat. The angle of the engine compartment printed in the RAIV vs RAIII is such you can not see the center exhaust round ports like the picture of the passenger side in the introduction of 1969 GTO Lime light green Ram Air IV. Here you can also see what looks like the proper Ram Air IV intake and thermal vaccum switch.

And you think you can believe every thing you read! LOL Things are not always what they seem, are they? LOL

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Last edited by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer; 12-11-2011 at 10:18 AM.
  #487  
Old 12-11-2011, 11:35 AM
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Default More 1968 428's in Firebird's

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Originally Posted by SD421 View Post
Sorry for all of the questions but this particular article is making me think!!! lol

Why didn't Royal do any Magazine articles of putting the big car engines into the A body cars??
A 421 into a 1965 or 1966 GTO or the 428 into a 1967 GTO. You think Wangers would have been trying to show every type of combo to sell the GTO.

I know there is the 1968 GTO "The Bossman" that did have a 428 put into it for a magazine article.

Just curious,
Don
Don,
I came across another magazine article for you to digest on buying a 1968 428. it was in "Popluar Hot Rodding" September 1968. But again it is in a new Firebird.
Eric
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  #488  
Old 12-11-2011, 12:09 PM
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Default Car Craft Feb. 1967. Only looks there is 1 White GTO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer View Post
The 1967 GTO on the left is the automatic Bobcat driven by Dick Jesse. The 1967 GTO on the right, with the engine hanging above it, is the 4 speed stick shift blue printed Bobcat driven by John "Cheater" Politzer, aka the 1966 GeeTo Mystery Tiger.
Here is a February 1967 "Car Craft" Magazine artcle with a blue "stock"1967 Ram Air GTO and a white with black vinyl top, Hurst wheels GTO. One would think there is only ONE white car! LOL

The two white GTO switch was done in the fall 1966. Before all the magazine articles hit the stands...LOL

I want you to note that is Sid Warren, in black shirt taking all of the measurments. Deck hieght, valve spring height, and cc volume of the head. Milt works the distributor machine and pushs (?) a valve into a head.

Dave Warren works on the suspenion and posts the fastest quarter mile times.

Credit needs to go were it is properly due!
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  #489  
Old 12-11-2011, 03:01 PM
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Dr Schiffer,

Thanks again for posting these articles and commenting on them.

I wonder why Wangers/Royal wasnt slipping in the 428 for these tests and passing them off as a 400??

Was it by then the magazines were becoming suspicious or that once someone had their GTO bobcatted it still would not be generating the #'s like in the magazine?

If these GTO's (like the white 1967 GTO), are being tested for the magazines and then doing actual street duty on Woodward later that night, wouldnt you want the "more powerfulr" engine of the two or was the idea to beat someone but not too bad since the whole idea of street racing was to get people into Royal to buy a GTO?

Don

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1966 421-9.3-1 comp-Race Tec 23cc Pistons
1966 Tri-Power
1967 670 Heads
Pontiac "Highlift" TriPower Cam by SpeedPro
DUR 214 Int 224 Exh @.050 - 107 ICL
LIFT .445" Int .465" Exh
Tri-Y-Headers by Tribal Tubes w/ Goerlich Mufflers
1966 Muncie Wide Ratio 4-Speed
1968-72 Chevy 12 Bolt Rear End w/ 3.73 rear gears

Last edited by SD421; 12-11-2011 at 03:02 PM. Reason: fix grammar
  #490  
Old 12-11-2011, 03:53 PM
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Default Car And Driver January, 1969

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Originally Posted by SD421 View Post
Dr Schiffer,

Thanks again for posting these articles and commenting on them.

I wonder why Wangers/Royal wasnt slipping in the 428 for these tests and passing them off as a 400??

Was it by then the magazines were becoming suspicious or that once someone had their GTO bobcatted it still would not be generating the #'s like in the magazine?

If these GTO's (like the white 1967 GTO), are being tested for the magazines and then doing actual street duty on Woodward later that night, wouldnt you want the "more powerfulr" engine of the two or was the idea to beat someone but not too bad since the whole idea of street racing was to get people into Royal to buy a GTO?

Don
Well, Don, That is an interesting observation..LOL I don't have the magazine. But you need to locate "Car and Driver" January 1969. The article is entitled; "Comparison Road Test Six Econo-Racers' Chevelle SS396, Cobra, Cyclone CJ, Hemi Road Runner, Super Bee, The Judge".

You will find our friendly 1969 Judge that was once the Lime Light Green GTO with the white interior in the mix of things. "Car and Driver" would not post the performance of the car. They just comented to "see text". You must read the text...LOL

"Car and Driver re-printed this tests in a book they released in 2008 called, "Car and Driver American Road Warriors, Classic Muscle Cars" It has a red 1964 GTO convertible front end looking at you.

After all it took how many years for it to be come public about the 1964 GTO Car and Driver test.

It is a good read.

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  #491  
Old 12-11-2011, 09:04 PM
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eric, thanks for taking the time to post all of this. out ouf curiosity, what type of doctor are you?

  #492  
Old 12-12-2011, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by muscle_collector View Post
eric, thanks for taking the time to post all of this. out ouf curiosity, what type of doctor are you?
A Damn Good one!.... LOL A Chiropractic Physician. Don't ask. Ahhh I'll tell you any ways so you understand some of it...

With all of the math, mechanical drafting classes from 8th grade through 11th grade I took. Plus add to it starting with the General Motor Craftsman Guide competiton in 9th grade for a GMI scholarship. I had plans to going to either GMI or Lawrence Tech.

My estranged father was an engineer for Packard and then Chrysler. Later consulted to mfg's around the world.

Step father, (from the time I was 10) his father and four uncles owned four scrap yards along a mile of Dort Hwy in Flint. My Step dad and grand father won several contracts with Fisher Body, Buick, Chevrolet, AC and GM Turnsted.

After my grand father died and step father sold their yard to the uncles. He started supplying the auto parts stores around Detroit and suburbs including Flint and Pontiac. He bought a few stores along the way with machine shops. Including one on Woodward. We supplied others along Woodward too.

It was at the customers' stores I'd build my cars so my Dad did know about then until they were done...LOL. My step dad was too close a freinds with the guys at Berkley Auto Electric. They campained a '57 Vette and where almost next door to Booth and Aaron's. They would bug my step dad to have me bring by my '57 Vette.

Another uncle owned a tire store on 8 Mile off Woodward.

I'd stop by several of the near by dealerships in Royal Oak including Royal Pontiac periodically. For a while in high school I only lived in Royal Oak Township approx. three miles from Ace Wilson's. But when not doing homework I was out on Woodward with my friends. Woodward was approx. a mile and a half from the house.

I had friends who's fathers where engineers or tier one suppliers to the industry. Their dads brought home the latest and greatest advance engineering stuff and limited production cars for us to take out and drive. We had a ball racing.

While in college we moved 15 minutes away from Woodward to West Bloomfield. It was just a quick shot down Maple RD (15 MIle Rd) through Birmingham onto Woodward.

My step dad wanted to send me to Northwood Institute to learn the automotive dealership trade. I rebelled blow off engineering too. I did not like the sight of blood. I almost passed out while observing surgery at one of my parents friends offices. So I ended up as a chiropractor. I thought at least as a doctor and the family owning auto parts stores, scrap yards and a tire store I'd get discounts on parts and machine work plus have enough money to afford my hobby. Ask me how that has worked out for me...LOL

So I approach every pateint with a technical evaluation of their body mechanics. I measure every x-ray segment, pateints range of motion and run a computer Surface EMG.

I have been very lucky having grown up around the industry. I have been on a few evaluation and focus groups for automotive advance planing through the years. I got the opportunity to meet many industry leaders, icons and the regular guy on the line by growing up with them, through my step dad's auto parts buisness, my office, the hobby or my community involvment. It has been a great ride!

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  #493  
Old 12-12-2011, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer View Post
Don,
I came across another magazine article for you to digest on buying a 1968 428. it was in "Popluar Hot Rodding" September 1968. But again it is in a new Firebird.
Eric
That is one of the Myrtle Motors prepared 428 Firebirds. Myrtle Motors was in Queens, NYC and Harry Wesch was the man behind the program. Unfortunately, they never did that many cars. I don't know the #'s but probably less than 10 were built. They would put in a 428 and give it their version of a Bobcat treatment.

They also had some lettered-up cars that the delearship campained at race tracks. A friend of mine who knew Harry said they sold one of those cars (a 67 Bird) to an employee of the delearship who drove that car around the streets of Brooklyn/Queens all lettered-up for years until he sold it to it's current owner. The guy who has the car now painted it over and put a Chevy motor in it. Despite attempts of local Pontiac guys to buy the car and restore it to as raced condition the current owner refuses to sell

Going back to my friend who knew Harry Wesch, in 1968 he wanted to purchase a Ram Air II GTO. He went to several local Pontiac delearships but they told him the car did not exist. Finally he went to Myrtle Motors and asked. They heard of the option and agreed to order him a car. My friend said they didn't know what to charge so they charged him the price of a base GTO. The car was red, black interior, 4-speed with a bench seat. Before picking up the car he had Harry give the car Myrtle's Bobcat type treatment. In later years Harry told my friend his car was the only GTO to get that treatment as they concentrated more on Firebirds. The first time out at the track the car ran 13 flat. Later on he took it to Nunzi who got the car to run 12.70's with further tunning. In the late 70's he sold the car to a guy who took out the Ram Air II and 4-speed and put in a regular 400 with auto trans so he could drive the car daily. Several years later the guy called my friend and told him the car was parked outside his house and if he wanted the GTO back he could come and get it for free. By the time my friend got down to this guys house 2 days later the NYC Dept of Sanitation had already picked up the car and crushed it. Today the only thing left is the Ram Air II motor which my friend still has.

  #494  
Old 12-12-2011, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer View Post
Jim still gets to see the original red '64 GTO "Car and Driver" magazine car. Fully restored to the way it looked in the test and the way Jim street raced it!
What's that 'ol saying, Eric?

"You can take a car out of Woodward, but ..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_3xEPACPVQ

  #495  
Old 12-12-2011, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenney View Post
What's that 'ol saying, Eric?

"You can take a car out of Woodward, but ..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_3xEPACPVQ
Dang it Tenney, no more car porn!!!! LOL

Don

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1966 421-9.3-1 comp-Race Tec 23cc Pistons
1966 Tri-Power
1967 670 Heads
Pontiac "Highlift" TriPower Cam by SpeedPro
DUR 214 Int 224 Exh @.050 - 107 ICL
LIFT .445" Int .465" Exh
Tri-Y-Headers by Tribal Tubes w/ Goerlich Mufflers
1966 Muncie Wide Ratio 4-Speed
1968-72 Chevy 12 Bolt Rear End w/ 3.73 rear gears
  #496  
Old 12-12-2011, 02:16 PM
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Only gets worse (er, better?!), Don - w/friend's 427 S/C (pic by "Skyhigh"). Another Goat to the left, btw ...
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Last edited by Tenney; 12-12-2011 at 02:28 PM.
  #497  
Old 12-12-2011, 03:15 PM
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Default Harry Wesch and Son's

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Originally Posted by ANDYA View Post
That is one of the Myrtle Motors prepared 428 Firebirds. Myrtle Motors was in Queens, NYC and Harry Wesch was the man behind the program. Unfortunately, they never did that many cars. I don't know the #'s but probably less than 10 were built. They would put in a 428 and give it their version of a Bobcat treatment.

They also had some lettered-up cars that the delearship campained at race tracks. A friend of mine who knew Harry said they sold one of those cars (a 67 Bird) to an employee of the delearship who drove that car around the streets of Brooklyn/Queens all lettered-up for years until he sold it to it's current owner. The guy who has the car now painted it over and put a Chevy motor in it. Despite attempts of local Pontiac guys to buy the car and restore it to as raced condition the current owner refuses to sell

Going back to my friend who knew Harry Wesch, in 1968 he wanted to purchase a Ram Air II GTO. He went to several local Pontiac delearships but they told him the car did not exist. Finally he went to Myrtle Motors and asked. They heard of the option and agreed to order him a car. My friend said they didn't know what to charge so they charged him the price of a base GTO. The car was red, black interior, 4-speed with a bench seat. Before picking up the car he had Harry give the car Myrtle's Bobcat type treatment. In later years Harry told my friend his car was the only GTO to get that treatment as they concentrated more on Firebirds. The first time out at the track the car ran 13 flat. Later on he took it to Nunzi who got the car to run 12.70's with further tunning. In the late 70's he sold the car to a guy who took out the Ram Air II and 4-speed and put in a regular 400 with auto trans so he could drive the car daily. Several years later the guy called my friend and told him the car was parked outside his house and if he wanted the GTO back he could come and get it for free. By the time my friend got down to this guys house 2 days later the NYC Dept of Sanitation had already picked up the car and crushed it. Today the only thing left is the Ram Air II motor which my friend still has.
Andya,
I remember an article on Harry and his son's in the mmm early 1980's Harry had stuck a 400 with HO manifolds into an early 1980's Grand Prix. I think one of the son's had an early Firebird. Good article for the time.
Eric

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  #498  
Old 12-12-2011, 03:28 PM
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Default Woodward!

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Originally Posted by Tenney View Post
What's that 'ol saying, Eric?

"You can take a car out of Woodward, but ..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_3xEPACPVQ
Tenney,
I see the exhaust. I hear the engine and a little of the tires. We really need to see you go though the gears a little harder.

I know. You need to bring the car back to Woodward during the Dream Cruise and let John "Cheater" Politzer launch it off one of the lights along side the Black Bird!Than we will put it on the net.LOL

Now that would be putting everything back where it belongs...LOL

Eric

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1968 Firebird Ram Air, "Jim Wangers' Black Bird"
1968 GTO Convertible
2002 Corvette Z06
  #499  
Old 12-12-2011, 03:30 PM
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SD421 SD421 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer View Post
Tenney,
I see the exhaust. I hear the engine and a little of the tires. We really need to see you go though the gears a little harder.

I know. You need to bring the car back to Woodward during the Dream Cruise and let John "Cheater" Politzer launch it off one of the lights along side the Black Bird!Than we will put it on the net.LOL

Now that would be putting everything back where it belongs...LOL

Eric
X2!!!!!

__________________


1966 GTO

1966 421-9.3-1 comp-Race Tec 23cc Pistons
1966 Tri-Power
1967 670 Heads
Pontiac "Highlift" TriPower Cam by SpeedPro
DUR 214 Int 224 Exh @.050 - 107 ICL
LIFT .445" Int .465" Exh
Tri-Y-Headers by Tribal Tubes w/ Goerlich Mufflers
1966 Muncie Wide Ratio 4-Speed
1968-72 Chevy 12 Bolt Rear End w/ 3.73 rear gears
  #500  
Old 12-12-2011, 03:41 PM
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SD421 SD421 is offline
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Posts: 1,147
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Originally Posted by Tenney View Post
Only gets worse (er, better?!), Don - w/friend's 427 S/C (pic by "Skyhigh"). Another Goat to the left, btw ...
sweet!

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1966 GTO

1966 421-9.3-1 comp-Race Tec 23cc Pistons
1966 Tri-Power
1967 670 Heads
Pontiac "Highlift" TriPower Cam by SpeedPro
DUR 214 Int 224 Exh @.050 - 107 ICL
LIFT .445" Int .465" Exh
Tri-Y-Headers by Tribal Tubes w/ Goerlich Mufflers
1966 Muncie Wide Ratio 4-Speed
1968-72 Chevy 12 Bolt Rear End w/ 3.73 rear gears
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