[Scarebird]

We had a batch of steel hubs cast, made the molds myself.

If some of you feel so strongly about iron heads and believe there is a market - buck up and make them. You may however wish to talk to Jeff Kauffmann first.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Sidetrack post

What were the Air Flow Research angle plug RamAir 4 heads made of ?
Have only seen pictures of 3 sets , and can't remember now.
I think the 1970 Judge Knafel Tin Indian wears a pair of them.

AFR is still in business making/selling heads
Would they own the molds, or would PMD have owned the molds ?

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Sidetrack post

What were the Air Flow Research angle plug RamAir 4 heads made of ?
Have only seen pictures of 3 sets , and can't remember now.
I think the 1970 Judge Knafel Tin Indian wears a pair of them.

AFR is still in business making/selling heads
Would they own the molds, or would PMD have owned the molds ?

AFR was sold out to Taglich Private Equity in July 2021. I had no idea they ever did work directly for PMD. Learned something today. All their aftermnarket heads I am aware of were aluminum and I have worked with some. Very high quality and honest with their flow numbers checked on our flow bench.

As expected when a company is bought out, the last couple sets of heads we have worked with came in with flaws. One had a single intake valve the wrong size installed in the head. If run that way , it would have been a disaster. Another was dirty and everything installed dry. Sad, but expected when a company is bought out. IMO, it would be a one in a million chance that anyone or anything involved in a PMD project from over 40 years ago would still be laying around.

[Jay S]

https://www.motortrend.com/news/hppp...ntiac-gto/amp/

Talks about the RA IV angle plug head engine toward the end of this article. Was quite an engine.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Sidetrack post

What were the Air Flow Research angle plug RamAir 4 heads made of ?
Have only seen pictures of 3 sets , and can't remember now.
I think the 1970 Judge Knafel Tin Indian wears a pair of them.

AFR is still in business making/selling heads
Would they own the molds, or would PMD have owned the molds ?

"This particular engine received a few extras, though. At the time, Pontiac was working with Warren Brownfield at Air Flow Research. The majority of the work on the heads was for the R/A-IV version of the 303 Pontiac used in the '70 SCCA Trans Am season. These heads were ported in a similar fashion to the 303 versions. Their flow potential was also augmented by an angle plug conversion that put the spark plug in a more advantageous position for the combustion event. Even by today's standards, these were pretty trick pieces."

Based on this quote from the article Jay posted a link to. I would say that they were Pontiac cast heads. The angle plug sounds like what was done to many Chevy heads back then. You plugged the spark plug hole and then drilled a new angled spark plug hole.

Stan

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Two pretty good pictures of the heads from 2009 Mecum auction.
https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0509-79...iac-gto-judge/

I was feeling pretty sure they were iron heads.
But sounds like they were castings supplied by PMD.
Maybe they were partial machined without the plug holes bored yet.
Or just modded some other way to get them angled..
They look "born-with" practically.

Anyway - dead end street

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Two pretty good pictures of the heads from 2009 Mecum auction.
https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0509-79...iac-gto-judge/

I was feeling pretty sure they were iron heads.
But sounds like they were castings supplied by PMD.
Maybe they were partial machined without the plug holes bored yet.
Or just modded some other way to get them angled..
They look "born-with" practically.

Anyway - dead end street

Great article, great pics and auction results. Good read too. Nothing is a dead end in this hobby. Very hard to tell if heads were pulled off the line before plug holes were drilled and tapped or modified later. Probably never know. Iron castings though, numbers visible in a couple pics.

[Elarson]

I have zero direct knowledge on the AFR heads but it would seem like the water jackets would need to be altered for an angle plug version. Notable that there are differences in plug angle among some OEM heads. Factory RA-V are conspicuously different.

Eric

[Sirrotica]

Mike, Eric, there was an article in one of the old car mags, I'm guessing in the early to mid 70s where some Pontiac racer was converting his conventional iron heads to an angle plug merely by plugging the original hole with a steel plug, then re-drilling, and tapping the new hole. I cannot recall the claimed power gains, but it must have been something to go through the trouble of making the change.

I never heard of anyone else doing that conversion but that one magazine article, so it never garnered much favor with racers.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

Far as I know--and I am not an expert--is that you can interchange Aluminum and Magnesium in the same mold.

Iron required a dedicated mold. There's no pouring iron into a mold intended for Aluminum and getting a decent, usable product out of it.

Originally Posted by Scarebird

We had a batch of steel hubs cast, made the molds myself.

If some of you feel so strongly about iron heads and believe there is a market - buck up and make them. You may however wish to talk to Jeff Kauffmann first.

There is an entirely skill level required to cast a cylinder head with water jackets and a multitude of required bosses than to steel hubs with no water jacket or required bosses. If you have ever watched a cast iron engine component master being assembled you would understand this, not to mention having access to a foundry to melt and ladle the required molten iron. Cylinder heads, blocks and cranks made from cast iron are REQUIRED to be made in a single ladling. For ONE cylinder head you are talking eighty (80) odd pounds of 2,700 degree liquid iron. How strong are you? Thirty years ago, I could pickup eighty pounds with one hand, but it wasn’t comprised of eighty pounds of molten iron. I wouldn’t even attempt it today. A ladling like this would require a heated ladle to keep the molten iron at its working temperature. Very few foundries have this technology available. Waupaca and other commercial foundries do, but they also have minimum piece requirements.

[mgarblik]

If angle vs straight spark plugs were the only compromise, I think most would be OK with straight spark plugs. There may be a tiny advantage to angle plugs, but not a show stopper IMO. It's all the other legitimate concerns that make a project like this complicated. If I had a pile of money to throw away, I would just have some made and not be concerned with even breaking even. When people/companies make parts for Pontiac engines, the general goal is "can I make this for the Pontiac hobby and not lose a huge amount of money". It's never "' I am going to make a killing on these cylinder heads". That just never happens in the Pontiac world. It's too small.

[Formulajones]

^^^Yep, and when it comes to that, we also have to take into consideration todays market and the direction this country has been heading. Hasn't been easy for business these days to stay afloat let alone even think about taking on a new project that likely won't pay off anyway.

We stood a better chance of getting something like this done a few years ago.

Most likely have to wait a few more years and hope things turn around for the better by then and revisit the subject. But I still won't hold my breath.

[694.1]

Has anyone mentioned investment casting? In a former life, I did a great deal of this.
The lost Styrofoam castings that I have studied were pretty impressive- dramatically less machining.
Might be a great way to cast iron...

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

All we need is basically just one good millionaire .
He can buy out - or partner with - the slow motion exhaust manifold supplier , and get that end working.
Then start pouring up the RoundPort heads right here in USA

As a vested junior associate to the janitor , I would in exchange provide a 614 and a 7F6 for templates.
If they have to be destroyed to get it right - I want a bigger promotion.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by 694.1

Has anyone mentioned investment casting? In a former life, I did a great deal of this.
The lost Styrofoam castings that I have studied were pretty impressive- dramatically less machining.
Might be a great way to cast iron...

I may be wrong here, but I don't think lost foam method can be used for iron due to the temperatures involved vs aluminum. Fairly certain sand castings are the least expensive way to form iron castings. I bet someone on here knows for sure.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

If angle vs straight spark plugs were the only compromise, I think most would be OK with straight spark plugs. There may be a tiny advantage to angle plugs, but not a show stopper IMO. It's all the other legitimate concerns that make a project like this complicated. If I had a pile of money to throw away, I would just have some made and not be concerned with even breaking even. When people/companies make parts for Pontiac engines, the general goal is "can I make this for the Pontiac hobby and not lose a huge amount of money". It's never "' I am going to make a killing on these cylinder heads". That just never happens in the Pontiac world. It's too small.

Mike, I have told my wife the same thing “ If I ever win the lottery I’m going to start a company that produces new Pontiac cast iron blocks and heads”. I realize I wouldn’t make a dime but if you could cover the costs of engineering and production I’d be happy.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

I may be wrong here, but I don't think lost foam method can be used for iron due to the temperatures involved vs aluminum. Fairly certain sand castings are the least expensive way to form iron castings. I bet someone on here knows for sure.

Investment casting might be a possibility using the lost wax method, but not with foam. Springfield Armory casts their M1A receivers by the lost wax method.

[grandam1979]

I would personally like to see a head cast to look like a ram air II or IV factory head but cast in aluminum. I would buy a set of those or two.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by grandam1979

I would personally like to see a head cast to look like a ram air II or IV factory head but cast in aluminum. I would buy a set of those or two.

X2

It's a ton of work to disguise a set if you go through the trouble to duplicate core plugs, duplicate the cast iron texture surface etc...

[Half-Inch Stud]

Doesn't cutting back the sparkplug's GND lug make angled plugs moot?

Iron Roundport manifolds with good flow seems needed, and then them roundport heard with outofdabox 280+ CFM.