[78w72]

not sure if this is related to the topic... but back in the early to mid 90's i used a comp magnum 280 cam in a 455 with shaved 6x-4 heads & used the crane version of the rhoads lifters. the cranes are no longer offered today from what i have seen, but were advertised as the same benefits of the rhoads lifters but without the noise. not sure who made them but they were a bleed down design but with a slower bleed down & supposed to not be as noisy. i never noticed any ticking on that engine with a very quiet exhaust.

[ponyakr]

Do I remember reading that Jim Hand said the Rhoads were the only bleed down lifters that really worked well ? Or did I just dream that ?

Anyhow, I think this is one of the links I posted that helped get me kicked off another Pontiac forum. They didn't wanna hear about that old 20th century, obsolete technology.

http://www.dapa.org/building-a-stron...iac-camshafts/


Anybody know anything about these CC variable duration lifters ?

http://butlerperformance.com/i-24453...tegory:1234799

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-886-16

I assume that these CC lifters are actually the Hylift Johnson "R" lifters, that so many recommend. I've brought this up before. But this is a perfect opportunity to do it again. Here's the description used for the "R" lifters, in their catalog.

" ...“R” or Race Design: These parts have an “R” designation after their part number. So a Race
Design part number will look like A-0817R. These Lifters have a Leak Down on the lower end
of the scale from 8 to 20 seconds. In the performance application these lifter will actually
“Bleed” down and result in an effective loss of valve lift and duration at lower RPMs. These
are also referred to as “Variable Duration” Lifters and will supply a better idle quality when
using a performance cam while still getting the benefit of the upper end power over a stock
cam. As the engine increases in RPM the Bleed down effect is reduced resulting in more duration
and valve lift. Having lifters with a much smaller Leak Down range will also balance all
of the cylinders to each other. Having one cylinder with lifters having a Leak Down of 80
seconds will react and produce a different power curve than the same cylinder with a 10
second Lifter..."

http://hylift-johnson.com/wp-content...talog_2014.pdf

So, once again I ask: Are the Hylift Johnson "R" lifters " bleed down variable duration" lifters, or not ?

Is it that maybe they just don't bleed down as much as the Rhoads ? To me, they are either variable duration, or not. I don't remember anybody on this site ever referring to 'em as bleed down, or variable duration. Instead, most will say you don't need the bleed down lifters. All you need are the Hylift Johnson "R" lifters. So, why don't we take this opportunity to find out once and for all who is telling the truth. Are the advertising claims of Comp Cams & Hylift Johnson just absolute lies ? Or, are they telling the truth ? Are these bleed down variable duration lifters, or not ?????

[dmac]

First off, I want a mild cam in my approx 8.8-9.2 cr 455 so I wont tear apart the rest of the 1975 Ventura with a TH350.

What I was seeking an answer to was what are the most absolutely reliable lifters because once closed up, I never want to even change a valve cover gasket again. I've used rhoads in the past a couple times, and the ticking never bothered me- it is definitely not as bad as when a lifter doesn't pump up.

If those lifters turn out to be Rhoads lifters, then I will select a slightly more aggressive cam than stock., like the 2802. I'm trying to build for max DURABILITY and not even concerned about picking up any more HP.

I think that rhoads takes standard lifters and checks them out and reworks them, and thus eliminates some of the production issues like internal parts missing.

Shurkey made a good point about the ticking being from bottoming out when the lifters aren't fully pumped up, and since I intend to run mostly just above idle, it could make them wear faster. I suppose that disassembling the lifters and doing my own little bit of QA on them is something I should be doing anyway. That is a good point too. At some point in the past, the ability to trust newly manufactured items disappeared. These days, I can't even counting on buying a can of spray paint that will spray instead of just putting out a solid stream.

I do think my question should have been
"who makes the best quality lifter including rhoads?" period.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...+Rhoads&page=5

[ponyakr]

"..."who makes the best quality lifter including rhoads?" period."


Most agree that the Hylift Johnson lifters are the best quality available today. But, the answer to your question is not that easily answered, since Rhoads lifters are said to be Hylift Johnson cores, to which that make some mods. One thing I like is the real snap ring retainers. Don't know if the Hylift Johnson lifters have those or not. I'm sure some recent buyers can tell us.

Also, on the Butler sight they claim that the CC lifters they sell are made by Hylift Johnson. This has been disputed here before.

http://butlerperformance.com/i-24453...tegory:1234799

Also, Paul Spotts, who I assume is a well respected Pontiac guy, claims that the USA made lifters he sells are the best, and that he has never had a failure. So, once again, it just depends on who you ask & who you believe. The pic shown in the Butler ad shows the lower groove, which Paul says his lifters have. So, is Paul also selling Hylift Johnson lifters ? If so, are they the "R" lifters ? The pic shows the wire "paperclip" retainers. So maybe those are not the "R" lifters. Seems like I come up with more questions than answers.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Hydrauli...xZODlz&vxp=mtr

[dmac]

That retainer 'cap' makes it impossible for someone to go through the lifter before using it. I know it doesn't take much to stop a lifter from performing right, and if an occasional lifter has something missing,???????

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by dmac

That retainer 'cap' makes it impossible for someone to go through the lifter before using it. I know it doesn't take much to stop a lifter from performing right, and if an occasional lifter has something missing,???????

Well, I reckin I somehow just don't remember seeing this post. Paul said that the "R" lifters are the bleed down type, which agrees with the Hylift Johnson description.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...7&postcount=88

But, when I see guys on here recommend these lifters, I don't remember seeing anybody say they are bleed down, or variable duration type lifters.

So, is that because they don't bleed down quite as much as Rhoads ?

For you guys who don't think the 2802 cam should use Rhoads lifters, do you think it is perfectly OK to use the Hylift Johnson "R" bleed down variable duration lifters ? And if so, why is one OK & not the other ? Is it just the ticking sound the Rhoads make ? I assume the HJ "R" lifters don't bleed down enuff to make a click ???

Would just like for the experts here to sort this thing out, so that we'll all know EXACTLY what we are buying, when we buy Pontiac HFT lifters.

[ponyakr]

Here's something else I'd like to point out. Some say that you should never use Rhoads lifters on the 068 cam. And some base that on what Jim Hand said.

"...It is neither necessary nor advisable to use Rhoads lifters with a streetable cam such as the 068, because the cylinder pressure may rise too high at low rpm, causing detonation or pre-ignition. There are benefits and disadvantages in all types of variable fibers, but the Rhoads units provide the best overall performance in my wagon..."

But, if you examine what Jim said, you can easily see that there are certain engines that could benefit by using Rhoads on an 068 cam. Consider a low compression 326, 350 or 400. Increasing the cylinder pressure is exactly what's called for. I'm not saying the 068/Rhoads combo is better than a Voodoo. Just saying that an 068 with Rhoads, would be better suited for a low CR engine than an 068 with reg lifters.

Does this sound reasonable ?

The only low CR engine I know of that came with an 068 is the 455HO.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/enginesearch4.htm

[Jim Hand]

There are distinct differences between the true variable lifters made by Rhoads, and the stock type lifters that Crane and others sell under their brand. Rhoads have a patented groove or flat down the outside of the inner part to allow oil to leak. The Crane lifters are merely stock style lifters with slightly more clearance between the inner body and the case (we have read that the components are quality fall outs from regular production that are reassembled with looser clearances internally). Independent tests show that the Crane units have about 20 percent of the leak down of the Rhoads. That is why they are quiet and function pretty much as standard lifters.

Oil thickness/viscosity does have a large effect on the leak down of any lifter. When the lifter is on the base circle, the fill hole is exposed to the oil pressure channels in the engine, and the lifter fills with oil to take up any clearance between the cam, lifter, push rod, rocker arm, and valve, exactly as do any hydraulic lifters. As quickly as the cam lobe begins to lift, the check system in the Rhoads closes which traps the oil within the lifter body, exactly as in all other hydraulic lifters. As the valve spring exerts pressure on the lifter, it begins to leak, just as do all lifters, but the Rhoads leaks more due to the machined-in groove or flat. This reduces the peak lift, and because the lifter leaks continuously from opening point through the entire lobe profile, the duration is shortened, but only on the valve closing side of the open/close cycle. The result is less lift, shorter duration, and an advanced lobe center, all helpful to low rpm operation. The advanced intake lobe center effectively increases real compression, as the earlier closing intake valve allows compression to build earlier on the compression stroke. The Rhoads never “stop” leaking, but as the leakage is a function of time, they leak less at higher rpm, and at around 3000-3500, the leakage effect is minimal (and the clicking stops). The noise made by the Rhoads is caused by the valve setting down on the seat earlier, and not tracking the closing ramp. I have run Rhoads for at least 35 years, and have never experienced any seat problems or recession. Again, oil pressure has no direct effect because the lifter sees actual oil pressure only when the lifter is on the base circle with minimum spring seat pressure. Of course, the thinner the oil, the more they will leak, and click, but that will also shorten the cam lift/duration even more. Several major cam companies sell Rhoads under their brand of leak down lifters, but not Crane. Will Rhoads lifter help you? It depends totally on where you apply a load to your engine. If your converter does not hook up until 3000 or higher, you will see little or no difference. However, if you run a tighter converter and a cam larger then about 220 on a 400, or 230 on a 455 Pontiac, you will likely feel and measure distinct differences in operation, providing you have traction.

STANDARD STOCK TYPE LIFTER OPERATION
(And comparisons to Rhoads operation.)

The easiest way to explain hydraulic lifter operation is to quote from a '65
Pontiac shop manual.

"When the lifter is riding on the low point of the cam, the plunger spring keeps the plunger and push rod seat in contact with the push rod. When the lifter body begins to ride up the cam lobe, the ball check valve cuts off
the transfer of oil from the reservoir below the plunger. The plunger and
lifter body then rise as a unit, pushing up the push rod and opening the
valve. As the lifter body rides down the other side of the cam, the plunger
follows with it until the valve closes. The lifter body continues to follow
the cam to its low point, but the plunger spring keeps the plunger in
contact with the push rod. The ball check valve will then move off its seat
and the lifter reservoir will remain full. During operation a small amount
of oil leaks out of the lifter between the plunger and body. A controlled
amount of leakage is important to provide continuous adjustment of the
plunger position within the lifter. This leakage is called "leak down" and
must be within certain limits to provide correct operation.”

The manual provides more information about push rod/rocker arm oiling, but the above defines the operation we are interested in. Note the description of "oil leaks out of the lifter between the plunger and body." Rhoads lifters have a groove machined into the side of the plunger in order to allow greater leakage, but it is still leakage in the exact same manner as
standard hydraulic lifters. The groove (earlier Rhoads lifters –pre 1980 - had a
machined flat in the plunger) allows a certain increased amount of oil to leak past. The leakage amount is dependent on the following factors: time for a complete cycle, which in turn is dependent on engine rpm, thickness of the oil, which is dependent on temperature of the oil and the oil viscosity, and resistance seen by the lifter, which is dependent on the valve spring pressure and lobe configuration.

It becomes obvious that at low rpm, any lifter, and especially the Rhoads,
will leak more, due to time available in each lobe cycle, whereas, at higher
rpm, there is not as much time in each lobe cycle, so the leakage is
decreased. They never stop leaking, but the leakage amount at higher rpm is almost insignificant in regards to the lifter function.

SEQUENCE OF OPERATION OF A TRUE VARIABLE LIFTER, ie. Rhoads:

1. When the lobe begins to rise, the check circuit in the lifter seals and
the lifter becomes isolated from oil pressure, and the valve opens at the
SAME time as with standard lifters.
2. As quickly as the lifter experiences lobe/spring pressure, it begins to
leak, and the lift profile of the valve begins to deviate from the cam lobe
profile. At the time the lobe reaches peak lift, the lifter plunger has
sunken down into the lifter body, and has not lifted the valve to full rated height.
3. As the lobe begins to fall, the lifter follows, but the plunger
continues to sink even further down into the body (due to the spring
pressure), and the valve contacts the seat before the lifter reaches the
closing ramp.

Here are the results of the above sequence of events:

A. Rated peak valve lift was not reached.
B. As the valve seated early, the duration of the valve open was
reduced.
C. As the duration was reduced while the valve opening remained the same, the valve center was changed to an advanced position.
D. As the valve did not follow the closing ramp, but rather the leaking
lifter/plunger, it was not allowed to seat as smoothly as the lobe is
designed, and as a result, set down harder, causing a noticeable click, or
clack.
E. The end and final result of less lift, less duration, and earlier intake
lobe center is increased torque and vacuum at the lower rpm. The additional result of extra noise also occurred.

This sequence continues through the entire rpm range, but as rpm increases, time for lifter leakage decreases, and the effects described become minimal and insignificant at about 3000-3500. And above that RPM, the cam/lifters begin to operate just as do standard hydraulic lifters. The 3000-3500 number is only a general estimate, and will vary, depending on oil characteristics, valve spring pressure, engine temperature, lobe design, and even the rate at which the engine accelerates. My standard Rhoads lifters quit clicking at between 2500 and 3000 when the oil is warm.

Another relatively unknown advantage of the Rhoads lifters is that they are a true anti-pumpup lifter, and will run to much higher RPM then standard hydraulic lifters. And they have the best quality circlip retainer which assures they will stay together at high RPM.

The lifters that Crane sells as variable have slightly more clearance
between the plunger and the lifter body, and do leak slightly more then
Crane's standard lifters, but according to independent tests, are not even
close to the rate of the Rhoads. That is why the Crane lifters don't click.

Note that the groove on the internal unit of Rhoads lifters is patented. Grooves on the exterior of the outer unit are not patented, and are used by various lifter companies (including Rhoads) for improved oiling between the lifter and cam lobe.

Jim Hand

[Tom Vaught]

Thanks Jim,
(Please give Tom my best wishes).

Tom Vaught

[64speed]

Thanks for the links

[KEN CROCIE]

you will not need Rhoads with this cam in a 455.
Jack Rhoads uses HY-Lift lifters exclusively. Call Jack to confirm.
The ticking noise is the valve closing. Call Jack to confirm.
I've been using and selling Rhoads lifters since 1976 and have a great deal of customer feedback as well as our own testing to confirm the lifters performance.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by KEN CROCIE

you will not need Rhoads with this cam in a 455.
.

Reading through all this and that's exactly what several others, including myself, have said. Pretty sure that Dennis Jensen is running this exact combo (2802 in a 455) with no Rhoads lifters, and he even had some dyno time with it. If the OP is still concerned how this cam may act in a 455, Dennis would be an excellent person to ask.

[ponyakr]

How about this: You can use Rhoads lifters, if you want to, but you don't have to use 'em to have decent street manners with this cam.

Anybody have trouble with that statement ?

[dmac]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

How about this: You can use Rhoads lifters, if you want to, but you don't have to use 'em to have decent street manners with this cam.

Anybody have trouble with that statement ?

Maybe I can go with a slightly bigger cam. Remember that I am looking at lifters for the quality of the lifter, and can change the cam. AND that I want to be able to use the 86-91 California blend octane gas, which eliminates a lot of cams that work better with higher compression.

But what seems to be confusing is that I am planning on NEVER seeing 5400 rpm. Mr. Hand remarked on the quality of the Rhoads brand. I've read and reread his recipes and books.

Again, I've never seen a post where a rhoads lifter was missing internal parts or didn't perform as expected, and never read that someone had to return one or two out of the 16.

I did find it interesting that using the 068 cam with rhoads can raise the dcr too high. But if I start with 8.6: static cr, will a higher dcr still allow regular gas? Is it the dcr or static cr that determines the octane required???

Stock, this 1970 455 was rated at 360 hp at 10:1 with the 067 cam. If I could get a set of NOS factory lifters I'd be happy, or even replacements from the 80s, but it will probably come down to either rhoads or the Johnson Hy lift based on this discussion,

[tom s]

You know they are using Hi-lift bodies and then redo the internals,why not just use the hy lift as it has been pretty much established the bodies are the same.The real issues with hft cams is going flat for reasons of poor quality lifters,poor quality of cam cores and most of all poor breakin procedures?Tom

[ponyakr]

Don't recall anybody saying that they think the Super Lube or Cam Saver option will be of any benefit.

It sounds like a good idea to me. Apparently Rhoads & Crower think so too. I don't see any negatives.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/r...w/make/pontiac

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/c...w/make/pontiac

Any opinions ?

[dmac]

Originally Posted by tom s

You know they are using Hi-lift bodies and then redo the internals,why not just use the hy lift as it has been pretty much established the bodies are the same.The real issues with hft cams is going flat for reasons of poor quality lifters,poor quality of cam cores and most of all poor breakin procedures?Tom

My thinking is that with Rhoades taking the Hy-lift bodies, and likely verifying bore size, etc, it is another level of QA. I don't recall any complaints about Hy-lift in particular, I do know that several sellers of lifter repackage other brands so even if one package is made by Hy-lift, the next may be imports with lower QA standards. I know I can order the rhoades directly from the factory (at least last decade)and before buying I will check to make sure I am getting real Hy-lifts.

Looking at the future, using the rhoads makes sense in a couple ways. Right now, I want a very mild driver. The rhoads would allow me to put in a bigger cam now and reduce the performance in the rpm range I drive while having the option of increased performance either by driving at a higher rpm, or by swapping lifters without a cam change in the future, or even by swapping to a higher ratio rocker.

Another reason for possibly using rhoads is resale. I'm getting older every day it seems, and may not be able to drive sooner than later.Even if I use a rev limiter and keep in under 4000 rpms, a buyer may like the extra that is possible using rhoads with the bigger cam. Or maybe in the future, I might be able to afford the sub-frame connectors, beefy transmission, and stiffer suspension that 500 ft lbs or more would require. Changing heads is easier without doing a cam change. Changing lifters or rockers to increase low end performance is even easier if wanted if I start with a bigger cam than what I really need or want right now.

Jim Hand's recounting of the 041 with rhoads has always intrigued me. I think my concerns about what options the rhoads offers has helped me decide.

[scott70]

Originally Posted by dmac

Maybe I can go with a slightly bigger cam. Remember that I am looking at lifters for the quality of the lifter, and can change the cam. AND that I want to be able to use the 86-91 California blend octane gas, which eliminates a lot of cams that work better with higher compression.

But what seems to be confusing is that I am planning on NEVER seeing 5400 rpm. Mr. Hand remarked on the quality of the Rhoads brand. I've read and reread his recipes and books.

Again, I've never seen a post where a rhoads lifter was missing internal parts or didn't perform as expected, and never read that someone had to return one or two out of the 16.

I did find it interesting that using the 068 cam with rhoads can raise the dcr too high. But if I start with 8.6: static cr, will a higher dcr still allow regular gas? Is it the dcr or static cr that determines the octane required???

Stock, this 1970 455 was rated at 360 hp at 10:1 with the 067 cam. If I could get a set of NOS factory lifters I'd be happy, or even replacements from the 80s, but it will probably come down to either rhoads or the Johnson Hy lift based on this discussion,

I run the 60919 crower (close to RA4)with 1.65 rockers with rhoads v max in my 70 455. Idles with very little lope and low end(off idle) is brutal.Rolling slow in 2nd gear with 3.31 gears all you do is push the go pedal and it will put down 150' easy.With rhoads lifters this cam idles just a little rougher than the 068.Why go with a smaller cam using rhoads lifters? I also believe the 70 455 is probably more like 9.5-1 from the factory.

[64speed]

I ordered my Hylift lifters directly from the company and while I can’t give you a Rockford hardness test on them or anything they just seem to be a better quality than some of the lifters I have used in the past.