[Glenn]

Today I had my new non-ported 75cc Aluminum D-port heads flowed on a SuperFlow bench.

Am I wrong to be a little disappointed in the results.
The bore was 4.125 or .030 over on a 400ci engine.


234 @ .500
234.6 @ .600

180 exhaust

At the lower ranges you could hear the air fluctuate which I was told the air wasn't flowing smoothly (unstable) through the port. I'll be getting the print out in a few days and will pass along the numbers.

[ponjohn]

Did you call Jeff before posting here?

John

[Glenn]

No...should I have. I don't like to bother a guy if I'm out in left field. I'm just asking is this the normal numbers for these heads? I know that the chamber design in these heads are superior and performance will improve. My local head guy said that he can get the numbers up easy to 250 and should improve performance by 20-30 hp. With my Comp Roller cam and these heads plus a little bit more I should be making better than 1.10 hp per ci.

[TinInjun]

Originally Posted by Glenn

The bore was 4.125 or .030 over on a 400ci engine.

Check your bore size again. A .030 over 400 is 4.151. Stock bore is 4.121.

[Glenn]

The bore size that was used on the test was 4.125. My car is .030 over but that wouldn't have an effect on the flow on the bench. According to Jeff when I ordered the heads and cam he said that that the .030 over bore didn't matter.

[johnta1]

So what's it supposed to flow?

The bore size does play a role in the flow numbers on the flow bench also.

[Glenn]

Ponjohn and Johnta1


The following is my email to Jeff Kauffman and his reply:

Jeff
Yesterday I was finally able to do the bench flow test on the KRE Aluminum D-Port heads that I got from you. The test was done on a SuperFlow 600 bench using 4.125 bore at 28". From what I am reading on the different Pontiac websites/chatrooms these numbers seem typical for these heads.

236 @ .500
236.6 @ .600

Exhaust was 180 without tubes.

I will be getting the full computer print out and will show you the results if you want me to. I was under the impression from you that these heads flowed in the 260-270 range and up around 290 with some porting.

Jeff's reply:

Glenn,

Yes, they do on my flow bench, Jim Hand's, Allen Minors and quite a few more. Not all benchs are the same and not all bench operators are the same. So there is to many variables to conclude that they don't flow that number! Only if it was a prefect world and we raced flow benchs would making power be as easy as a flow bench test. Steady state dry air moving thur a port. Nothing like a real running engine!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jeff
---------------------

I will add that Gregg Jacobson, Port Flow Development did the testing of my heads. Gregg has been in the head business for 25+ years, is very knowledgeable, and his equipment is first rate. He builds engines from 300hp to 1400 hp. He has a great deal of experience on Pontiac engines and there are some very positive comments on the PY site about his work.

I did not see the story in Car Craft but I was told that Car Craft testing got the identical results that I got....236 cfm

[ponjohn]

OK? So what is your stance- misrepresented?

Are you going to port or assemble as delivered?

John

[Glenn]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

OK? So what is your stance- misrepresented?

Are you going to port or assemble as delivered?

John

No, just a little disappointed. Gregg, my head guy was very surprised by the lack luster result.

I am going to have them cleaned up and expect them to flow about 250, but still somewhat under the advertised figures. It's my hope that the buffeting of air (instability) that we got at the mid-range will be done away with this touch up.

Jeff Kauffman quote: "Only if it was a prefect world and we raced flow benchs would making power be as easy as a flow bench test."

I seem to remember Bruce Fulper making a similar statement.

Ponjohn, what has been your experience Kauffman heads? You seem to be a little antagonistic with your comments. Sorry if the results that I experienced and reported ruffled your feathers. As I said before Car Craft magazine seemed to have the very same result that I had.

Later I will publish a side-by-side comparsion between a untouched set of Edelbrock E-heads and my KRE's tested on the same flow bench by Gregg.

[ponjohn]

Sorry- certainly did not mean for it to come across like that.

I simply did not kow what you intended to accomplish by posting in this forum. By posting here you essentially filed a complaint before speaking with the supplier.

It would be the same if I bought product X from you and posted descrepancies before I consulted with you about my issues.

Now you know the difference and can post on your experience. I look forward to the comparison.

Best of luck.
john

[Glenn]

My purpose was just to inform.

I've talked to a few people that are using the KRE heads and all are very pleased with the increased performance. I'm sure that I will be too. Flow is just one aspect and I think that the improved chamber design is just as important. Cliff Ruggles swears by his KRE heads and saw a significant boost in performance in his Ventura that he uses as a test vehicle for his carbs.

For anyone who is interested here are the full results of my bench test. They are slightly different from my prior posts.
Int.
.100 lift 63.2
.200 134.0
.300 189.0
.400 224.8
.500 234.7
.600 235.3

Exh.
.100 51.1
.200 109.0
.300 139.5
.400 156.5
.500 171.0
.600 177.9

The following is the result of having a 30 degree cut on the valve. This was not done by KRE, but by Port Flow Development. The touch up on the ports in not yet complete. I also will be showing the comparison between the stock Pontiac heads and the KRE in a week or two.

.100 77.8
.200 147.4
.300 198.7
.400 229.6
.500 234.9
.600 236.8

[ponjohn]

I also am headed in that direction. If we could have ironed out a deal in the group purchase I would have jumped on it. But will now wait.

I plan on 310 cfm.

John

[Bnick166]

Not to hijack this thread, But I was a little bit confused by the "Group Buy"....Was anything ever stated by Kevin or the Kauffmans about sending in the money by said date? Did we get blown off or what gives?:confused:

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by Bnick166

Not to hijack this thread, But I was a little bit confused by the "Group Buy"....Was anything ever stated by Kevin or the Kauffmans about sending in the money by said date? Did we get blown off or what gives?:confused:

Two things:

A few people had a problem with the terms put forth by KRE and Tin Indian. I was not going to negotiate terms that we're not negotiable- like all the money passing through me.

The other issue for me was I was not going to be repsonsible for 30k$ with the contention already in place even BEFORE the orders were placed.

John

[gearbanger]

I'd love to see a comparison of your untouched e-heads on a track and then the untouched KRE heads on a track.

Heck with a flow bench.

[BVR421]

Originally Posted by gearbanger

I'd love to see a comparison of your untouched e-heads on a track and then the untouched KRE heads on a track.
Heck with a flow bench.

either one should just about equal a good set of 6Xs

[Brian Baker]

Glenn, keep in mind that most head flow figures that are advertised are achieved with a 4.25" bore on the flow bench. When you see Edelbrocks advertised as "300 cfm" it's with a 4.25" bore. The larger the bore, the better the number. Would your KRE heads gain 40-cfm of flow with a 4.25" bore, putting them in stock Edelbrock territory? I don't know.

[Mr. P-Body]

We've installed a few sets. The question arrises: What exactly do you mean, "untouched" ports?

We've bought the "ready to run" unported and the "bare" unported. BIG difference. The "bare" heads had no work done to the seats OR bowls. They were ready to BEGIN the valve job and port work. The assembled "ready to run" heads had the bowls done and the seats exactly where they should be.

Our flow bench is similar to KRE's. It's a "pitot tube" type, unlike the SuperFlow stuff. We got 232 @ .500 lift (28" of water) on the BARE heads, with the valve job "rouhged in" so the valve would seal, using SI 2.11 intake valves. Once the bowl work and GOOD valve job was done, they went 256. This is ports that are "as cast", with only the normal prep work done to any performance head.
The "280" heads flowed 281 @ .550" lift.

This post is not an attempt to support KRE or condemn them. It is to make sure we're comparing apples to apples, and not apples to donuts. It HAS been done, here and on other sites, where either the "biggest" or "smallest" numbers were reported, either to promote or detract, depending on which side of the "fence" one is on.
There is a difference between "ready to run" and "unported, as cast". The RTR heads are actually quite nice.

Jim

[Glenn]

Mr P-Body

These head were assembled by KRE with valves and springs and ready to take out of the box, bolt on the block and run. I guess what you would say "ready to run". Just as you said they had no work on the seats and bowls and no porting. My heads flowed about the same as yours (234.7 vs. 232 @ .500 lift). These are about the same numbers that Car Craft got on their test, so I'm told. When I ordered them I asked Jeff if I needed any work done on them and he said no, it would be a waste of money on my part and very much would hurt my lower and mid range power. The difference is cost between set of untouched heads and ported and polished was $1850 vs. $2250.

Jeff told be that my heads would flow in the 260-270 range and KRE advertises their port and polish work on these heads increases the numbers to 290. In Jeff's response posted above he infers that my heads really do flow at 260-270 but its the inaccuracy of the flow bench that I used that is the problem not his heads. While I would agree that there will be minor differences between every bench results, 26-36 cfm is far from being minor and my numbers seems to very close to the same as others that have come forward with input.

Jeff made the statement that these heads flowed in the advertised range of 260-270 on Jim Hand's bench. These are the flow results provided by Jim Hand. Jim's heads are 87cc while mine are 74cc. JIm also said that he used 1.77 exhaust valves replacing the standard 1.66 valves so the exhaust numbers will be higher even though Jim didn't give his exhaust figures.

At .5 and .6 lifts:
Port 1 = 207/210
Port 3 = 214/225
Port 5 = 210/215
Port 7 = 216/221

Port 2 = 213/217
Port 4 = 209/214
Port 6 = 218/222
Port 8 = 208/212

As you can see they don't flow as well as Mr. P-Body's, Car Craft, or mine and all far way short of KRE claimed numbers. According to Jim these were in the first run of 50 made and I believe that improvements have been made since then. The bottom line is that KRE heads are good and it's not just the flow but the design that makes them so good. I just question why they feel the need to exaggerate their flow numbers.

I did have to spend extra dollars to get my heads to flow in the ballpark of KRE claimed minimun 260cfm rate.

Mr. P-Body thank you for adding clarity.

Brian and TinInjun....I did error when I said the bore was 4.125, it was 4.151.

[Brian Baker]

$1850 for 235-cfm?:rolleyes:

I don't get it.:confused:

The weight savings over a ported d-port doesn't seem worth the expense.