[CATBIRD]

Anyone interested.....While searching the web, I came across a site that is relevant to this topic. Unfortunately, I'm so digitally challenged, I don't know how to link it to this post. Sometime in 1959 "LIFE" magazine sent a photographer to the Chevrolet assembly plant in Tarrytown N.Y. The result was about 150 or so color pictures of the Fisher Body and final assembly activity that went on there. Although there are some variation between Pontiac and Chevrolet, the build concepts would be the same. I hope you can find and enjoy the pictures......John

GOOGLE "CHEVROLET FACTORY" SOURCE:LIFE

[MOJO Catalina]

http://images.google.com/search?&hl=...fm3CQ&tbm=isch

Very Cool find Catbird.... I didn't know the exhaust manifolds were painted engine color at the factory.. I guess Pontiac did that too?
GM probably didn't treat any division any differently except maybe Cadillac?

I'm going to start a thread in the lobby with this link to avoid irrelevant commentary about it here.. I know I'm tempted..

[blueghoast]

Pretty Cool sight, I like them old 59-Chevys.
I just picked up a 60 4-door Belair sedan.
It's still got the original 283 glide trading
some body work for it. I've got to replace
the winshield, It's gona be a daily driver
for the family this summer.

GT.

[MOJO Catalina]

Here's the lobby thread for those who want to join us there:
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...5&goto=newpost

[CATBIRD]

Safari Larry.....There is a 1959 Bonneville Safari now on E-bay. If you want to add it to your list. It's a Euclid/Southgate car. EP2039 and 759C1404......John

P.S. Did you get the Euclid interview that I sent?

[Safari Larry]

Thanks Catbird, I'll add it. That provides evidence that the 59 wagon bodies were made at the Euclid plant.

Yes I did get the Euclid interview you sent. VERY INTERESTING! I would have replied sooner with my appreciation but sometimes life gets in the way of this important stuff. THANKS!

I scanned the article and it is attached for review by anyone interested. I'm a bit confused now. In the article, he said he started work at the Euclid plant in 1955 and they were making Chevy and Pontiac wagon bodies there. 1955-58 Pontiac station wagon bodies were produced at plant with code "CL" which I've been told means Cleveland -- but I have not seen documentation to substantiate that. The Cleveland and Euclid plants are only about 2 1/2 miles apart. The Cleveland plant was much larger with a huge assembly building and multiple railroad spurs. If he did work at the Euclid plant and they made 1955-58 Pontiac/Chev wagon bodies then the plant code for the Euclid plant was "CL" for 1958 and earlier. Make sense??? Not to me! If they used CL for the Euclid plant, what code did they use for the Cleveland plant? Surely that huge plant was making some kind of bodies.

So I'm wondering if this guy was actually working at the Cleveland plant and he thought it was in Euclid. But that wouldn't make sense if station wagon body production was at the Euclid plant in 1959-60. I don't know but something doesn't make sense. I had previously concluded that station wagon body production had moved from the Cleveland FB plant (code CL) in 1958 to the Euclid FB plant (code EP) in 1959. Now it appears that maybe Pontiac wagon production was always at the Euclid plant and CL was used for the plant code in 1958 and earlier years -- but I'm not convinced of that. I've seen it reported that tri-five chevy wagon bodies were made at the Cleveland plant.

I now know that 1959-60 Pontiac wagon bodies were made at the EP plant. The EP code is for Euclid and is listed in the 1960 Master Parts Catalog, page 581, first page of Body Parts Section. There is no code listed for Cleveland meaning that the Cleveland plant did not produce Pontiac bodies in 1960.

[CATBIRD]

Larry.....that whole interview seems to cloud the question of body production. I'm not familiar with the 55-58 numbers. Is it similar to 59-60, with the Fisher Body plant on the cowl tag, and the final assembly in the VIN? Is it possible that Cleveland came on board after Euclid, and Euclid was called Cleveland at that time, just because of it's proximity to the city? Later being changed to differentiate the two. Have you verified the Cleveland connection to all wagons; or could it be that only the two door Safaris and Nomads were special built there?

Could Cleveland have been a Chevrolet final assembly plant also? I don't know where all of them were, except for Flint, Tarrytown, Baltimore, Kansas City MO., and Van Nays.

One other thing that I'm querious of, is that I haven't found a Pontiac produced convertible or wagon yet. I'd be interested in seeing where their body was made. Being the home plant, you would think that they would have all the fixtures for both, even if the satellite plants did not......John

[MOJO Catalina]

Originally Posted by CATBIRD

One other thing that I'm querious of, is that I haven't found a Pontiac produced convertible or wagon yet. I'd be interested in seeing where their body was made. Being the home plant, you would think that they would have all the fixtures for both, even if the satellite plants did not......John

Weren't regular Pontiac wagons (non safari) from 1955 Chevy bodies with different tail lights and front clips? I bet they were built at a Chevy plant.. Maybe other tri-five wagons too?

[Safari Larry]

Originally Posted by CATBIRD

I'm not familiar with the 55-58 numbers. Is it similar to 59-60, with the Fisher Body plant on the cowl tag, and the final assembly in the VIN?

Yes, very similar. Format was slightly different but the same information was available from the tags.

Is it possible that Cleveland came on board after Euclid, and Euclid was called Cleveland at that time, just because of it's proximity to the city? Later being changed to differentiate the two.

Cleveland plant was built by Fisher Body in 1921. See this link. Euclid plant was built in 1943 and purchased by Fisher Body in 1947. With the Cleveland plant being the older/larger plant, I can't imagine that they would ever call the Euclid plant "Cleveland" or use "CL" for the Euclid plant.

Have you verified the Cleveland connection to all wagons; or could it be that only the two door Safaris and Nomads were special built there?

Yes I have. All Chevy and Pontiac wagon bodies, including Safari/Nomad, were built at the same plant.

Could Cleveland have been a Chevrolet final assembly plant also?

No, Cleveland was not a Chevy final assembly plant. There was no GM final assembly plant at either the Cleveland or Euclid FB plants. All bodies were shipped by rail to final assembly plants.

I don't know where all of them were, except for Flint, Tarrytown, Baltimore, Kansas City MO., and Van Nays.

See http://www.pontiacsafari.com/PlantCodes/Codes.htm

One other thing that I'm curious of, is that I haven't found a Pontiac produced convertible or wagon yet. I'd be interested in seeing where their body was made. Being the home plant, you would think that they would have all the fixtures for both, even if the satellite plants did not

Perhaps you mean you haven't found a Pontiac convertible or wagon body that was built at the Pontiac MI Fisher Body plant. Pontiac MI was the home plant for Pontiac assembly, not Fisher Body. All 1955 convertible bodies were built at the Fisher Body "L" plant, believed to be Lansing MI. All bodies were shipped out, there was no Pontiac assembly plant there. I think there was a Chevy assembly plant at Lansing. In 1956-57 (and I believe 58), all convertible bodies were built at the Pontiac MI FB plant next to the Pontiac assembly plant. Most convertibles were assembled there at the Pontiac MI assembly plant.

Originally Posted by MOJO Catalina

Weren't regular Pontiac wagons (non safari) from 1955 Chevy bodies with different tail lights and front clips? I bet they were built at a Chevy plant.. Maybe other tri-five wagons too?

Pontiac and Chevy bodies shared a lot, not just wagons. But there were significant differences such as floor panel, dash and body mounts. Although 55/56 Pontiac Chieftain wagon quarter panels and tail lights housings look a lot like Chevy, there is a slight difference in placement of the wheel well due to longer chassis for Pontiac. Tail light housings are the same and Chevy/Pontiac tail lights will interchange although they look different.

Bodies were not made at a Chevy plant, they were made at a Fisher Body plant. All GM makes had bodies made by Fisher Body at Fisher Body plants. Pontiac and the other makes did not build the bodies, they got them from Fisher Body.

[CATBIRD]

Larry.....What I meant was that in my personal observations for 1959-60, I haven't come across a Pontiac produced convertible or wagon. I'd be interested in whether they were LA/P and EP/P or possibly PO/P.

I knew the BOP Fisher Body and final assembly plants, I was refering to the Chevrolet plants in my post. Lansing was also home to Oldsmobile in those years.

Most of the Fisher Body and final assembly plants were in the same buildings. As a matter of fact, when I toured the Linden plant, I was struck by how much of the building was devoted to body and paint, and how little was for final assembly. As near as I can tell, final assembly was only the complete chassis, and what was done after the body drop.

Some may look at this thread and wonder why otherwise perfectly sane (?????) people would babble on about stuff that happened 50-60 years ago. Me, I've always been facinated by American history. Maybe this isn't as signficant as the Revolution the Civil War, or other events, but it represents a period in time when our industrial might was unequaled. Unfortunately you can't just pick up a book and get all this information in one place, so it behooves us to try and consolidate it here......John

[Safari Larry]

The 1959-60 Pontiac convertibles on the observed list all have bodies produced at LA (Lansing) plant. They were assembled at various Pontiac (B-O-P) assembly plants. 1959-60 Station wagon bodies are all EP (Euclid) for FB plant and various Pontiac assembly plants.

Most FB plants may have been in the same building as GM assembly but not all. The Pontiac MI FB plant was across a road from the Pontiac assembly plant. I understand they built an enclosed bridge across the road for transferring bodies. FB plants that were in the same building were walled off between FB and assembly. FB was its own company and was not integrated with any GM assembly plant.

Catbird, I sometimes wonder why we care about this. But we do. Some things we do without reason other than it is interesting. I guess doing this for historical purposes is a good excuse and rationalization that we're not wasting our time on something useless.

[Keith Seymore]

Here's a couple pictures of the Pontiac Michigan facility, which clearly show the aforementioned enclosed tunnel -







...and a diagram showing the building names, which might be helpful:



As an aside, when I started at Chevrolet Flint Assembly in 1979 it had just recently become a "merged" assembly plant: Fisher Body had occupied the south half and Chevrolet the north. There was a giant wall separating the two halves, under the same roof.

Flint Assembly is still in operation today, building 1 ton pickups, crew cabs and cab chassis products. That wall is still there, although there is a sizeable pass-through in it to facilitate truck and pedestrian traffic.

K

[Ragtop Man]

Dunno if any Detroiters ever commuted to Cleveland, but there were definitely two plants in the area -- I believe what is known as the Euclid Plant was visible as you approached the west side of the Cleveland area from the Ohio Turnpike.

We have a lot of family in that area, and in the '60s I used to see the Fisher Body trucks rolling along with the canvas covers on them, sometimes without in the summer. I vaguely recall seeing E-bodies on those trucks (Rivis, etc) and my Ford guy father explaining that damn GM had too much money for their own good if they could truck bodies around the country and still make a profit!

I have heard that Rivieras, for example, were built at Euclid and also at Flint (?) Anyone who can clarify, please do. It was one of the most hand-built of all the 60's cars, save for the Cadillac Limos, which largely accounts for their relatively high survival rate compared to other models.

To answer a question further down the thread, yes the body shop is the most expensive and least profitable operation in the building, at least it is now with the incredibly expensive air clearing and conditioning gear, environmental remediation, training, etc, etc, etc. Back in the day, Fisher signed a deal with GM to sell them bodies at cost plus 16% -- but that cost also factored in all of the development, and you can imagine that in the day of annual model changeovers. Takes too long to explain here, but if you google Fisher Body, the case will come up. And it explains why they had the money to do whatever they pleased.

However, they needed to make sure they contained the hassle of doing station wagon and convertible bodies as much as possible. They take a lot of extra work, but do not result in a lot of sales. So, GM would scatter the fabrication of those to specialty Fisher facilities and just ship them out as necessary. That way, only one set of jigs would be needed for low runners, and the bodies could be produced economically. How the heck you would handle a special color, though, on a convertible is beyond me. It's bad enough painting two separate parts in two booths with two operators in the same building... dunno how it would work when the other half of the process is 100 to 1000 miles away!



Fisher did pioneer all kinds of metal fabrication and finishing techniques -- no one could fold a sheet of steel like those guys. Take a look at the wild creases in the Cadillacs of the era, and the deep draw bumpers formed from heavy gauge steel. I honestly doubt even with our modern CAD/CAM that we could do it again if we had to. Also check the '71-6 scissor top, by far the most sophisticated convertible roof ever produced.

[Safari Larry]

Keith, GREAT photos of Pontiac MI Assembly & adjoining Fisher Body. Those are keepers! Thanks!

Ragtop, good comments. Interesting you mention the painting of body at one location and the hood/fenders at an assembly plant, possibly far away. I've thought about that and find it interesting that they could paint from two different batches and have an exact match. See

http://www.PontiacSafari.com/FisherB...AD_Summary.pdf

for an article I found to be quite interesting and it mentions the paint matching as a problem. It also gives a good description of the GM relationship with Fisher Body. I inserted my comments and I'm open to your thoughts.

[Keith Seymore]

Very interesting and (I suspect) accurate.

I would take issue only with the last paragraph:

"The “traditional Fisher Body/Car Division” operating model was one of the many reasons that GM North American Operations (design, development, manufacturing and sales of cars and trucks) didn’t make a dime from 1980-1994; virtually all of GM’s profits during that period came from GMAC, Hughes Electronics, EDS, MIC, and numerous other non-automotive subsidiaries, not from their core car and truck business, and a similar earnings pattern continues today."

GM trucks (both pickups and the up and coming sport utilities) were incredibly profitable, and were able to more than offset the embarrassing losses that resulted from the passenger cars of the day, right up until the crash of 2008.

I can also support that paint matching was an issue at the time. It was extremely difficult with truck bodies produced at the north end of the plant and front clips painted at the south end; I can't imagine trying to match colors painted in two different sections of town.

K