[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

There are more issues causing noisy lifters other than the lifter itself. I think the lifters are easiest to blame and focus on (this is the Internet and we try to keep things entertaining
) However there definitely have been and are quality control issues with almost all engine parts nowadays that have concerns and problems that need to be dealt with.

Amen to that!

[gtofreek]

All I know is the engine we first noticed this issue on was using Morel lifters. They would be quiet when first started and after about a minute it started getting noisy. Once we addressed the oil band issue, those same lifters were quiet, so it clearly is not just a QC issue with lifters but rather the lifter not getting enough oil while it's on the base circle. Thus going back to my post about lifter bore clearance. Yes there are some QC issues with some lifters, but for the most part, these noisy lifters are the fault of the oil band placement.

64 Speed, yes the Hylift lifters are Chevy bodies, which is why you need to do the lifter bore mod. Unless you can find some Shavers. We use the Hylift lifters because we don't have QC issues with them, and they have a slow bleed version.

[64speed]

Thank you Paul

[ponjohn]

Is there ANY downside regardless of what lifters will be use in performing the Paul mod?

Does that make the block only usable for hyd rollers in future builds?

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

Is there ANY

Does that make the block only usable for hyd rollers in future builds?

That's a good question.

I would assume that would also make it OK to use Chevy flat tappet lifters.

Don't see why it would prevent the use of Pontiac flat tappets, since the Rhoads Super Lube & Crower CamSaver lifters have a vertical machined groove, & a vertical machined flat, to get extra oil to the cam. So, a groove in the lifter bore, that does not go all the way to the bottom, shouldn't prevent the use of Pontiac flat tappets, in my mind.

But, I'm also interested in the answer to this ?

[Steve C.]

If necessary depending on the cam /base circle situation the lifter bore groove modification can be done in conjunction with solid roller lifters. Example with a Crower solid roller lifter with the HIPPO oiling option it might not get oil 100 percent of the time unless the oil band is not lined up. Note the hole directly from the oil band to the needle bearings here on page 4

https://www.crower.com/media/pdf/RollerLifterGuide.pdf

Some will suggest it is not necessary since in operation the lifter goes up and down fast enough not to worry for the short moment there is no oil flow to the small hole. And then there is the subject of splash lube to the needle bearings.


.

[Formulajones]

From what I remember Paul telling me, there is no downside to the lifter bore modification no matter what lifter you use.

However, we never had this mod done on the last 455 we ran the old style hydraulic roller in that I started this thread about, and it was perfectly quiet. We also have no plan to do this mod to dads current engine either. Not sure if the oil feed is located in a different position on the Kauffman blocks, but I'm thinking they are not.
Even with that said, Paul is doing this mod to another 455 he is machining for me.

[gtofreek]

No downside at all with the lifter bore mod.

[HWYSTR455]

If internal lifter clearances are large, more oil would help. I would think there are several ways to approach that, block mod, or even just more oil psi are a couple that come to mind.

.

[77 TRASHCAN]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

That's a good question.

I would assume that would also make it OK to use Chevy flat tappet lifters.

Don't see why it would prevent the use of Pontiac flat tappets, since the Rhoads Super Lube & Crower CamSaver lifters have a vertical machined groove, & a vertical machined flat, to get extra oil to the cam. So, a groove in the lifter bore, that does not go all the way to the bottom, shouldn't prevent the use of Pontiac flat tappets, in my mind.

But, I'm also interested in the answer to this ?

The lifter bore groove will only supply a little more lubrication to the lifter/lifter bore, below oil band on a Pontiac lifter. Guess a Chevy lifter could be used, but no need, Hylift Johnson makes the real McCoy Pontiac hydraulic flat tappet lifters......

My question for Paul, what is part number for the hydraulic roller lifters that Hylift Johnson sells, that DO have the chevy bodies??? I've looked on their website, did not see such a listing...

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN

The lifter bore groove will only supply a little more lubrication to the lifter/lifter bore, below oil band on a Pontiac lifter. Guess a Chevy lifter could be used, but no need, Hylift Johnson makes the real McCoy Pontiac hydraulic flat tappet lifters......

My question for Paul, what is part number for the hydraulic roller lifters that Hylift Johnson sells, that DO have the chevy bodies??? I've looked on their website, did not see such a listing...

IIRC, it's a 2347SE, for slowbleed and EDM hole to oil the axle.

[chiphead]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

It's also why people like Paul Carter are modifying blocks, lowering the oil holes in the lifter bores which cures the issue.

In that picture you can also clearly see the revised 857 is much taller, and the oil bands are quite different. Thanks for the picture, that's what I really wanted to see.

So which is it? Is it really the oil bands or just an internal lifter clearance issue? There seems to be contradicting theories. I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to wrap my head around this, because like I mentioned, these lifters worked perfectly for years. I'm trying to determine if these are something we might want to use in the future, or just go straight for the updated set.

.

Why can't it be both? Tolerance stack ups play hell with everything. Stack up of the oil band/feed hole relationship AND internal clearances.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by chiphead

Why can't it be both? Tolerance stack ups play hell with everything. Stack up of the oil band/feed hole relationship AND internal clearances.

It could be, but can't narrow any of it down specifically because there seems to be differences of opinions as to why it happens, whether it's both, a multitude of things or just one issue.

Some claim Pontiacs have had lifter oil bands in the wrong location for decades and it's fine, some say it's not fine, while others say it's an internal lifter clearance or quality issue and has absolutely nothing to do with the oil band, while others say it depends on the camshaft used and the base circle... LOL it just goes on and on. I doubt it's all of these combined on every example, it probably comes down to one root cause.

Personally, I've never experienced any of the issues that I guess have been discussed on here long before I ever became a member and I've been using roller cams for 25 years. :shrug: Either way, I've gotten enough PM's on the subject now to put my mind at ease and pretty much what the root cause is and how to avoid it.

[77 TRASHCAN]

Post 22, Hylift Johnson
Post 31, part number 2347SE