[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

Good article by Amsoil, but the problem I see with it is it never mentions the word, "zinc"

Which is our world is why people go to the HD Diesel oil for good or ill. Maybe crowds other than flat tappet cam guys also use it, but I had no idea. But still, from our demographics perspective it beat around the bush on the reason people choose that oil.

The zinc has been reduced in Rotella so that it's close to regular motor oil. However zinc isn't the only additive that can support flat tappet lifters, there are other supplements that can support it. Again contact the manufacturers to see if they have products that will work in a flat tappet engine. We already know who has zinc levels that are reminiscent of oils back in the 60s and 70s, but there are still mechanical failures.

In light of all the counterfeit parts, the oil isn't all of the problem, parts integrity has a lot to do with it.

Years ago we put a bunch of flat tappet engines together, and had no problems. Today a completly different animal with so many failures that the car manufacturers have gone to roller tappets in most every engine made.

[vertigto]

What is interesting about Driven oils is that they don't advertise their zinc/phosphorus (ZDDP) content anywhere. So...I called them and was told that the HR line has @ 1800 ppm ZDDP. Couldn't/wouldn't break it down for me and mentioned that it is proprietary and if posted would lead to issues.

Not sure exactly what he meant, but guessing it is in reference to issues between manufacturers advertised claims vs. oil analysis results that we all read about online. Doesn't give me warm fuzzies, but it seems like most claims are inaccurate.

So seems like a toss-up for me between VR1 10w-30 and Driven HR5 10w-40. Wish the VR1 came in 10w-40.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by vertigto

What is interesting about Driven oils is that they don't advertise their zinc/phosphorus (ZDDP) content anywhere. So...I called them and was told that the HR line has @ 1800 ppm ZDDP. Couldn't/wouldn't break it down for me and mentioned that it is proprietary and if posted would lead to issues.

Not sure exactly what he meant, but guessing it is in reference to issues between manufacturers advertised claims vs. oil analysis results that we all read about online. Doesn't give me warm fuzzies, but it seems like most claims are inaccurate.

So seems like a toss-up for me between VR1 10w-30 and Driven HR5 10w-40. Wish the VR1 came in 10w-40.

Did the Driven tech give you a recommendation? If they did I would try what they recommend.

Actually GM sent out bulletins about using 10W40 oil many years ago refering to it sticking the rings on the pistons. Of course things with oils have changed since that time, but I always shy away from using 10W-40 since then. If I had smething that needed 40 weight oil, I ran straight 40 weight, most everything I have gets 10W-30 for gas engines. the threshold for switching oil to a heavier viscosity is sustained 90 plus degree ambient air temp usage.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by i82much

i just wish valvoline would make VR1 in a 10 or 15w-40. Would be perfect for a lot of our older cars. 20w50 is too thick and many feel 10w30 is too thin.

Better than VR1 and 15-40 synthetic racing iol for gas engines. High zinc for flat tappet engines.

https://cnc-motorsports.com/schaeffe...-1-gallon.html

[Formulajones]

I'd run what ever they recommend and then get your own oil analysis. Then you'll know exactly what's in it.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Better than VR1 and 15-40 synthetic racing iol for gas engines. High zinc for flat tappet engines.

https://cnc-motorsports.com/schaeffe...-1-gallon.html

i am sure it is good stuff, just not worth the cost premium to me.

[vertigto]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Did the Driven tech give you a recommendation? If they did I would try what they recommend.

Actually GM sent out bulletins about using 10W40 oil many years ago refering to it sticking the rings on the pistons. Of course things with oils have changed since that time, but I always shy away from using 10W-40 since then. If I had smething that needed 40 weight oil, I ran straight 40 weight, most everything I have gets 10W-30 for gas engines. the threshold for switching oil to a heavier viscosity is sustained 90 plus degree ambient air temp usage.

It gets pretty hot in the summer in NC. Driven tech promoted the HR5/HR40.

[lust4speed]

It was explained to me by an oil company tech many years ago that in a specific volume of oil there was a perfect ratio of detergent molecules and lubricating molecules depending on the intended use of the oil. Diesel oils needed more detergents and by definition that reduced the actual amount of lubricating molecules available.

On the other side of the coin I ran VR1 for years in my street engine. Seemed to worked great but a teardown after about six years had the interior looking like I had been running non-detergent oil. There was a fine haze that I was told was from waste particles settling out of the oil instead of being held in suspension.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

It was explained to me by an oil company tech many years ago that in a specific volume of oil there was a perfect ratio of detergent molecules and lubricating molecules depending on the intended use of the oil. Diesel oils needed more detergents and by definition that reduced the actual amount of lubricating molecules available.

On the other side of the coin I ran VR1 for years in my street engine. Seemed to worked great but a teardown after about six years had the interior looking like I had been running non-detergent oil. There was a fine haze that I was told was from waste particles settling out of the oil instead of being held in suspension.

Yep pretty much what Jay and I have eluded to, and what I've been told from a particular oil rep as well.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by vertigto

It gets pretty hot in the summer in NC. Driven tech promoted the HR5/HR40.

That's good to know. Do they offer package deals or memberships with discounts? Or can it be had locally to you? Just wondering how that might work out price wise.

Usually significant savings can be had that way. I've been a member of Amsoil for about 15 years now and order from them in bulk. With the discounts they offer and frequently advertising free shipping and other deals, I just place a big order about once a year and it ends up being a little over $9 a quart which is cheaper than anything in the stores. It ships down from Vegas and I'm in Arizona so it's usually here the next day.

In fact in a pinch I can get Amsoil at the local Napa when I need to but it's $15 a quart there and even the cheaper Valvoline VR1 stuff is more expensive than what I'm paying for Amsoil mail order.

It's worth shopping around, and with deals found you can use these hot rod oils in your engine and it's not overly expensive.

[78w72]

Most engines in the street section do not need high zddp for mild or stock cams, if you have .600 lift that isnt really considered a street car, verging on race or full race, there are some higher lift cams in this section but for the most part a real street car has a more mild cam in the .400 to maybe low .500 lift range & lower valve spring pressures... or the original pontiac stock cams/springs.

For those types of cams/engines you DO NOT need 1400ppm zddp. Todays oils have other anti wear additives like moly and a newer longer lasting type of zddp to protect cams, zddp is sacrificial so higher amounts were needed in older oils. Most current S grades of oil say they are backward compatible with previous ratings, so with new & better anti wear additives oil doesnt need super high levels of old tech zddp to protect most already broken in "street" cams. Thick 20/50 VR1 isnt needed for any street engine either, most street tolerances call for 10/30 or 10/40 of whatever brand you prefer, especially in colder climates/seasons. Yes there are synthetic 20/50 oils that cold pour as good or better than standard 10/30 or 10/40 oils but too thick oil has no benefit over a better suited weight for the average street application.

I have 2 flat tappet cams in pontiac engines, 1 stock 301t & one comp XE with ~.480 lift, been running normal off the shelf oil in the 301t for 25+ years with zero cam/lifter problems, the comp cam also uses good off the shelf oils for 13+ years, used to run the old SL/SM rotella t i had a bunch of but since switched to normal 10/30-10/40 oils & again zero cam/lifter problems. Also there are still millions of stock sized FT cam vehicles on the road running normal oils, my last daily driver was a jeep cherokee 4.0 with about the same size cam as the small stock pontiac cams, sold it at 200k miles using regular oil, mostly walmart supertech, still see it driving around town 4 years later.

I agree its a good idea to call a companies tech line or read the FAQ on their website, although i recently suggested calling a tech line on a different subject & was told tech lines are just some kid answering the phone that doesnt know anything... valvolines FAQ explains the new longer lasting zddp doesnt need the old higher levels to provide the same protection. Bottom line is most real street cars with smaller already broken in cams do not need excessive amounts of zddp or any specialty race oil like VR1, and just dumping in a bottle of zddp additive without knowing how much is in the oil already is usually a waste of money & throws off the additive pack designed by engineers who know what they are doing.

[MIke L]

Originally Posted by VCho455

What type of camshaft is installed in the engine?

In the never-ending push for cleaner exhaust emissions the time frame from oil classification changes has gone from once every 10-12 Years to every 3 to 5 years.

For a stock engine from the 1960's there is no oil with a current classification that is appropriate, period! There are oils that are appropriate for them but none of them carry a rating. The current rated diesel oils are no longer formulated in a way to provide long-term protection in a vintage engines.

The introduction of catalytic converters and Def fluid has forced the oil formulation to change. Yesterday's Rotella is not today's Rotella.

To answer your question….
I have a Nunzi 2041 HL cam recommended by him.
222/232 @50
.453 / .470 lift with 1.52 lifter’s
175 Spring Height
125 Closed spring pressure, 290 open
70 O/L
113 L/S

30 over ‘65 389


Mike

[MIke L]

Vcho455..
To answer your question above….

Nunzi 2041HL recommended by him
222/232 @50
.453 / .470 lift with 1.52 lifters
175 Spring Height
125 Closed Spring Pressure/ 290 Open
70 O/L
113 L/S

30 over ‘65 389

Thanks for asking


Mike

[78w72]

cams were basically the same in the 60's through the 70's for all pontiac v8's besides maybe a SD 455 or other rare engine, the date the engine was made doesnt mean modern oils wont work... todays oils are perfectly fine for a 60's V8.. period. In fact besides the whole zddp debate, todays oils are far better than oil from the 60's or 70s in the base stock oil quality and the additive blends.

The nunzi cam posted looks to be pretty mild lift, if its fully broken in & in good condition, a quality brand oil would be fine, check the oils spec sheet for info on zddp & other additives, most modern oils are in the 900-1000ppm range for zddp along with other advanced additives that were not really common in older oils. or look at bobistheoilguy to see oil analysis done on all kinds of oils, look at the new "virgin" VOA instead of the used oil UOA, gives detailed info on additives.

By all means use whatever oil you like and can afford, im just stating whats worked for me for 30+ years of owning pontiacs as well as what Ive learned & read from many reputable sources and mechanics & my local machine shop that builds all kinds of engines including dedicated high power race engines.

[Formulajones]

And to add to all of that, you have to keep in mind most people don't drive these things much. The majority are lucky enough to put 2000 miles a year on these old cars. Driving a car 20 years might amount to 40,000 miles tops and for some of us, if it lasts 20 years that's the rest of a life time, so maybe none of this matters.

Just putting things in perspective

Another thing to keep in mind, there are more high pressure points in these engines than just camshafts. Basically everything that doesn't have a bearing between it. Piston skirts are one and they do take a beating, some engines more so than others for various reasons. Piston pins can be a critical point. Push rods and rockers are another pressure point that takes a lot of wear.

I guess it depends on how much you're spending to build these engines. I can say for certain it's not cheap to do one right. Especially now. Currently doing one and we'll be in it over $10 grand and it's not a fancy stroker either, just a small SBC which are supposed to be cheap to build (yeah right ). With engines costing that much you have to be honest with yourself, how much is too much for engine protection? I feel it's really nothing when you consider the grand scheme of things.

Now if I had some cheap ball honed junk yard engine I didn't care much about, I wouldn't care what I poured in it because if something did happen, I'm not out $10-$15,000 dollars either. It just depends which end of the spectrum you want to look at. But for sure there are oils out there that have much better additive packages for what we do with these old cars, and some that really aren't a real good idea to use as far as some of these oils go.

[78w72]

Ball honed junkyard engine? Pretty sure theres not too many of those on here. All my engines & majority that I read about on here are professionally built with name brand parts. I use name brand off the shelf oils with zero problems, even if cars are only driven a few thousand miles per year, after 10-20 years of ownership that adds up to a lot of miles, good oils with good spin on filters is all thats needed for most these classic street cars & millions of daily drivers that go to 200-300k+ miles with ease using normal oil & filters.

Guess I will never understand why some use a race oil in a street car with a small or stock cam, there is absolutely no reason for that except all the out dated or false myths of people saying zddp has been removed from todays oils or that they need VR1 or race type specialty oils or additives with 1400+ zddp in their 220-350 or 400hp small(er) cam engines. When breaking in a new cam or for "big" cams with stronger springs a specialty oil may be best or a cam break in additive, but for all the stock to mild cam street cars theres is nothing in the engine that a good quality oil wont protect.

I realize some guys are stuck in their ways & wont do the research into modern oils or follow advice from reputable sources like an oil company or many professional engine builders. I have used oils like valvoline, mobil1, havoline, quakerstate/shell, rotella-t & delo400 & even supertech for decades with no engine or cam related issues on my classic cars or daily drivers. Its a little paranoid to think a name brand oil will cause damage to a street engine when its driving to the dairy queen or doing a burn out leaving the parking lot... or bashing around back roads or light duty drag racing. If a street engine fails in those type of circumstances, its not the oils fault or because it didnt have 1400 zddp.

[MIke L]

This thread has morphed into one of the most interesting, informative and thoughtful ones I’ve read here or anywhere else in a long time!

I don’t have the technical knowledge to contribute much, but it goes to show how asking a simple question about what’s printed on an oil bottle can bring out the best.



Mike

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

The zinc has been reduced in Rotella so that it's close to regular motor oil. However zinc isn't the only additive that can support flat tappet lifters, there are other supplements that can support it. Again contact the manufacturers to see if they have products that will work in a flat tappet engine. We already know who has zinc levels that are reminiscent of oils back in the 60s and 70s, but there are still mechanical failures.

In light of all the counterfeit parts, the oil isn't all of the problem, parts integrity has a lot to do with it.

Years ago we put a bunch of flat tappet engines together, and had no problems. Today a completly different animal with so many failures that the car manufacturers have gone to roller tappets in most every engine made.

A lot of truth there.

Today:
1) a quart of oil is $15.00 I bought each gallon of oil with the 1400 zddp for the same money.

2) I have 100 quarts (25 gallons) of the good 1400 ZDDP oil for my Mechanical Solid Lifter engines. Enough for me (and later) my son to drive the car for the next 50 years. Lots of trips possible to Mackinac Island (the bridge) annual car show.

The 64 GTO is a street car, always has been a street car. 6.5 quarts of oil in that engine will be good for many trip miles.

But the rest of you guys (and girls) do whatever you wish.

Tom V.

Wolf Heads oil (from the midwest) was excellent oil for many many years.
The offshore oils (Shell, etc) were nowhere near as good for protecting the engine.

Harvey Crane (at one time the owner of Crane cans in Florida and CMC in Michigan) manufactured the first production roller camshafts for a high volume
production engine (a F--- Engine). EVEN THOSE ENGINES WILL FAIL WITH CRAP OFFSHORE OIL IN THEM.

[i82much]

one thought - how many of us are actually going to wear out a pontiac v8? most of us are concerned about avoiding a catastrophe, like a flat cam, not about extending the engine life over 100k miles.

from that perspective, you can see why the zddp issue gets so much attention - people aren't trying to find the ideal oil to maximize their engine longevity or drain interval, they're just trying to avoid a disaster in the 2000 miles or so they might drive their car in a year.

[Steve C.]

Internet tid bit, one of many related...

"If you need oil with extra ZDDP, the best procedure is to use oil that already contains the additive mixed in the proper dosage."

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2018/...o%20burn%20oil.

Another....

Can you have too much Zinc?

https://www.raceenginesuppliers.com/...-too-much-zinc


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