[Pontiyak]

Since its cold January nights I feel its time we get a interesting query thread on here.

I know that Motor Trend in Oct 1968 tested a 1969 Grand 428 -370HP automatic car. I know it was a TH-400, 3.23 posi, A/C car that ran 16.5 @ 86 mph. This is even in Mike Noun's reports.
I have always wondered quite often about the road test car report for the 1969 Grand Prix from Car Life magazine? It is referenced on a few internet sites as a 428HO- 390HP car that ran 14.1 sec @ 95.3 mph. I have never ever seen the article myself so I have no idea exactly what it was. But heard it referenced by individuals that it was a 3.90 gear car. I have read it was a TH-400 car on one site and others state it as a 4 speed. Thus if it was actually a 4speed 3.90 car it being one of the 22 cars with the M21 installed.

What I wonder as I travel the roads for business and thinking.
If it is or was 1 of the 22 has it ever been found ?
And how many the 22 cars have been found and documented?

I'm sure Grant you must have some info.

Let the discussion begin...

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Pontiyak

And how many the 22 cars have been found and documented?

At least one:

[MikeNoun]

I believe the test(s) where a 1969 Grand Prix ran 14.0 to 14.3 were Royal Pontiac prepared. One was Jim Wangers' personal car, and had the Royal Bobcat paint scheme. Not sure if it was Jim's car that made the rounds, or a couple different GP's.

This is the stat sheet from the Feb 1969 Car And Driver test. They tested two Grand Prixs, one with and one without the Bobcat kit. The stats in parenthesis are the numbers for the Royal Bobcat Grand Prix, and it had 3.90 (or 3.91) gears and a 4-speed.

[north]

The HiPo 69 brochure also references a MotorTrend test of two similar cars... A 428HO 4spd with 3.90's and an automatic 370 horse AC car. The photos show the 4speed car having a gold leather interior with a dash tach while the automatic car has a black optional cloth interior.

However the main exterior photo is of the gold interior leather car and it has a hood tach (Car is Expresso brown). The other car is either black or nocturne blue (GP only color) with redlines and a hood tach).

[Pontiyak]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

I believe the test(s) where a 1969 Grand Prix ran 14.0 to 14.3 were Royal Pontiac prepared. One was Jim Wangers' personal car, and had the Royal Bobcat paint scheme. Not sure if it was Jim's car that made the rounds, or a couple different GP's.

Hey Mike thanks for chiming in with the info.
A few questions.
1) When you say the tests do you mean the 2 Car and Driver tests listed here ?

2) Do you have the info on the Car Life test car ?

3) The Motor Trend test car was a 428-370 HP car? Do you think itwas same car that was thrashed and used for Car and Diver tests?
When I look up the great list you compiled of road tests.
http://www.angelfire.com/on/geebjen/roadtest.html

Originally Posted by north

The HiPo 69 brochure also references a MotorTrend test of two similar cars... A 428HO 4spd with 3.90's and an automatic 370 horse AC car. The photos show the 4speed car having a gold leather interior with a dash tach while the automatic car has a black optional cloth interior.

I agree with you on that completely. I have the Pontiac Performance brochure also.
It shows there is a test car that is a 428HO 4 speed 3.90 gear. Looks like car is Midnight green kinda. with gold leather. But I will go to shop and review pic some more.

Dave

[Matt Meaney]

the bobcat car road test was reprinted in a issue of HPP mag. I searched on the hot rod web site, but couldn't find anything. it's got to be out there somewhere.

[MikeNoun]

Hi Dave, wow, I simply can't believe that old Road Tests compilation is still out there! I did that in 1999 on an old PC that still used 3-1/2" disks. There were a lot more road tests to include. Around 2002, I converted the text into a MS Word format, and included photos and a summary of each road test, making for a nice 100-page book, but never completed the project.

Not sure which GP was which in those road tests, I never really analyzed those, as I focused more on the Birds and Goats. Wangers supplied a 69 Grand Prix to CARS Magazine that was Matador Red with white accents, with a Royal Bobcat paint scheme that replicated the famous 1969 GTO Royal Bobcat RAV GTO paint scheme, but in red/white.

This was his car in the May, 1969 CARS Magazine issue.

[Pontiyak]

The car of Jim's was the Royal Bobcat car then. So the Royal Bobcat car was probably Jim's car that was used.
But I think the other road tests cars were not Royal cars.
This is out of the brochure and it refers to 2 GP's tested.
The other is a 370 HP auto car. Mike i think it maybe the car you refered to in the old 1999 list as being already beat on hard when M/T got it.

[will slow gto]

Here's a road test for a '69 SJ with the 390 horse motor but connected to the Turbo 400. Same 3.90 gears. This is out of the '69 CARS magazine SUPERCARS annual issue. To say they liked the car is a bit of an understatement. 14.95 @ 94.7.

[trishieldchief]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Hi Dave, wow, I simply can't believe that old Road Tests compilation is still out there! I did that in 1999 on an old PC that still used 3-1/2" disks. There were a lot more road tests to include. Around 2002, I converted the text into a MS Word format, and included photos and a summary of each road test, making for a nice 100-page book, but never completed the project.

Not sure which GP was which in those road tests, I never really analyzed those, as I focused more on the Birds and Goats. Wangers supplied a 69 Grand Prix to CARS Magazine that was Matador Red with white accents, with a Royal Bobcat paint scheme that replicated the famous 1969 GTO Royal Bobcat RAV GTO paint scheme, but in red/white.

This was his car in the May, 1969 CARS Magazine issue.

I started a thread a few months ago questioning if anyone had a factory hood tach 69 -70 GP.
This is the Royal car that had a hood tach.
Factory option load or dealer installed at Royal?

[428ho4spd]

Originally Posted by Pontiyak

If it is or was 1 of the 22 has it ever been found ?
And how many the 22 cars have been found and documented?

I'm sure Grant you must have some info.

Dave,

The Matador Red car that Keith posted is the only one that I've actually seen that is documented. One other would be the test car you spoke of shown in the Motor Trend Performance Brochure which appears to be the same car photoed in the 1969 Wide Track performance poster set. This car is Expresso Brown with Gold Leather interior, I've never heard if this car survived or not? I've often wondered if its still out there.

Grant

['ol Pinion head]

Originally Posted by will slow gto

Here's a road test for a '69 SJ with the 390 horse motor but connected to the Turbo 400. Same 3.90 gears. This is out of the '69 CARS magazine SUPERCARS annual issue. To say they liked the car is a bit of an understatement. 14.95 @ 94.7.

Somewhere there's a Cars magazine article that was reprinted in the late 70's in one of Marty Schorrs publications, and I believe the early HPP republished, the GP was running low 14's. Believe it was Joe Oldham that referred to his associate Gromer as his "preshrunk" roadtest driver.

[MRGPHO]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

Somewhere there's a Cars magazine article that was reprinted in the late 70's in one of Marty Schorrs publications, and I believe the early HPP republished, the GP was running low 14's. Believe it was Joe Oldham that referred to his associate Gromer as his "preshrunk" roadtest driver.

The "preshrunk" comment is on pg 25 from the April 1985 issue of High Performance Pontiac mag titled "Road Test" 1969 428HO Royal Bobcat Grand Prix = the close ratio 4 speed car with 3:90 gearing. Not to be confused with the almost exact same article (actually the same author = Scott Stevens) from the March 1988 issue of Musclecars mag titled "Das Boat" of the exact same car. The Car and Driver article from February of 1969 is titled "Two Pontiac Grand Prix" and again features the same "Bobcat" painted close ratio 4 speed HO car. Car and Driver claimed a best ET of 13.98 seconds at 102 mph for their testing. Car Life magazine in the Feb 1969 issue (with the red GP on the cover) lists the 1/4 mile in 14.1 at 95.3 mph and a top speed of 129 mph at 5800 rpm for the HO automatic and a 3:55 to 1 rear gear (although I thought 3:23 to 1 was std with A/C).There is a nice picture of the GP rear end running at what appears to be LAPEER International Dragway - not sure where this was. A very unknown article is from Super Stock magazine from July 1969 titled "Gee-Pee with Go-Power" where a HO automatic car got the "Bobcat" treatment and the 3:90 rear gear that they were able to coax an ET of 13:43 and 105.26 mph with the exhaust manifolds removed. This car was white with gold "SSJ" type of paint job - maybe Jim Wanger's car? This should get everyone busy on the internet now!!

['ol Pinion head]

Thanks, for some reason that stuck in my head. Up in the attic have a box full of ThunderAms, several of the old Marty Schorr books, from the late '70's. Mr Schorr, Oldham, Gromer, all of those fellows were part of Cars, before CSK, and HPP. Was always hard to find the old Cars Illustrated's here in the SW, being Cars was an East Coast published mag.

MRGPHO, do you have any info, a sales bulletin, possibly, when pwr disc brakes became std equip on a '69 GP?

[Dontiac]

I couldn't remember what magazine I got it out of but I've had this clipping tacked to my wall for 20+ years. I do know the article was called "Das Boat" and it was a Royal Bobcat 428HO-4 spd-3:90 car.

[Pontiyak]

This thread is brought info I was never aware of before !!

Originally Posted by will slow gto

Here's a road test for a '69 SJ with the 390 horse motor but connected to the Turbo 400. Same 3.90 gears. This is out of the '69 CARS magazine SUPERCARS annual issue. To say they liked the car is a bit of an understatement. 14.95 @ 94.7.

Wow !!! I never was aware of this road test! I started a thread years ago trying to find 428 HO automatic cars with 3.90 gears. I think may fire this thread back up .

Originally Posted by MRGPHO

The Car and Driver article from February of 1969 is titled "Two Pontiac Grand Prix" and again features the same "Bobcat" painted close ratio 4 speed HO car. Car and Driver claimed a best ET of 13.98 seconds at 102 mph for their testing. Car Life magazine in the Feb 1969 issue (with the red GP on the cover) lists the 1/4 mile in 14.1 at 95.3 mph and a top speed of 129 mph at 5800 rpm for the HO automatic and a 3:55 to 1 rear gear (although I thought 3:23 to 1 was std with A/C).

So did Car Life test 428HO auto car with 3.55 ?
Car and Driver tested 2 HO cars ( 4 speed and auto) and Car Life also tested 2 cars ??

Originally Posted by 428ho4spd

The Matador Red car that Keith posted is the only one that I've actually seen that is documented. One other would be the test car you spoke of shown in the Motor Trend Performance Brochure which appears to be the same car photoed in the 1969 Wide Track performance poster set. This car is Expresso Brown with Gold Leather interior, I've never heard if this car survived or not? I've often wondered if its still out there.

Grant

So Grant only 1 of the 22 cars has been found and documented at this time ? That is too bad less than 5% survival rate at this point. I'm sure there are others out there that got a gear change. But people don't know what they got w/o PHS.



In this Hemmings article below between Joe and Jim Wangers in 2009. Jim says there was 12 Bobcats built ( 6 - 4 speed and 6 auto) .
Would all these been 3.90 gear cars ?

http://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mus...e/1932741.html

[MRGPHO]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

Thanks, for some reason that stuck in my head. Up in the attic have a box full of ThunderAms, several of the old Marty Schorr books, from the late '70's. Mr Schorr, Oldham, Gromer, all of those fellows were part of Cars, before CSK, and HPP. Was always hard to find the old Cars Illustrated's here in the SW, being Cars was an East Coast published mag.

MRGPHO, do you have any info, a sales bulletin, possibly, when pwr disc brakes became std equip on a '69 GP?

Unfortunately I do not have any info on the disc brakes. Every 69 GP I have owned has had disc brakes = another reason these are such good cars. Perhaps someone else has this info???

[MRGPHO]

Originally Posted by Pontiyak

This thread is brought info I was never aware of before !!


Wow !!! I never was aware of this road test! I started a thread years ago trying to find 428 HO automatic cars with 3.90 gears. I think may fire this thread back up .



So did Car Life test 428HO auto car with 3.55 ?
Car and Driver tested 2 HO cars ( 4 speed and auto) and Car Life also tested 2 cars ??




So Grant only 1 of the 22 cars has been found and documented at this time ? That is too bad less than 5% survival rate at this point. I'm sure there are others out there that got a gear change. But people don't know what they got w/o PHS.



In this Hemmings article below between Joe and Jim Wangers in 2009. Jim says there was 12 Bobcats built ( 6 - 4 speed and 6 auto) .
Would all these been 3.90 gear cars ?

http://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mus...e/1932741.html

Car Life only tested 1 car = a HO auto with 3:55 gears. This issue of Car Life is from February of 1969 and is volume 16 Number 1 and starts on page 16 and is titled "Car Life's 1969 Engineering Excellence Award". It is a great article - very long and informative on the 69 GP. Also in this issue are road tests of the 69 Riviera, 69 T-Bird and 69 Super Bee.
Maybe another idea would be to start a thread with a list of all the articles on the 69 GP that have appeared in current magazines? I could probably find about 15 such articles.

[trishieldchief]

Here is some interesting detail on GP 428 engines.

All 69 428 GP engines received 62 heads.

Standard GP SJ 428's had very mild cams 066 for XF auto and 067 for 4 speed 428.

Keep in mind, standard 69 Firebird YT and GTO YS engines with auto trans had bigger 067 camshaft. So in a bigger cube 428 these cams are even milder!

Auto trans XG code 428 HO engine received 067 camshaft which is the standard camshaft in a lowly YS code 400 in a regular auto trans 69 GTO and Firebird.

Only the 69 GP 428 HO WL code received the O68 Ram Air camshaft.

Also, all 69 GP standard 370 hp and 390 hp 428 HO's received the same standard non ram air carbs 7029268 auto and 7029263 for 4 speeds.

When you consider that the 428 HO engine upgrade was $184.80 all you really got especially in auto trans application were long branch exhaust manifolds and thus oil filter rotator block.

Pontiac made great money and essentially gave you very little for the 69 GP 428 HO engine upgrade.

[MRGPHO]

Originally Posted by trishieldchief

Here is some interesting detail on GP 428 engines.

All 69 428 GP engines received 62 heads.

Standard GP SJ 428's had very mild cams 066 for XF auto and 067 for 4 speed 428.

Keep in mind, standard 69 Firebird YT and GTO YS engines with auto trans had bigger 067 camshaft. So in a bigger cube 428 these cams are even milder!

Auto trans XG code 428 HO engine received 067 camshaft which is the standard camshaft in a lowly YS code 400 in a regular auto trans 69 GTO and Firebird.

Only the 69 GP 428 HO WL code received the O68 Ram Air camshaft.

Also, all 69 GP standard 370 hp and 390 hp 428 HO's received the same standard non ram air carbs 7029268 auto and 7029263 for 4 speeds.

When you consider that the 428 HO engine upgrade was $184.80 all you really got especially in auto trans application were long branch exhaust manifolds and thus oil filter rotator block.

Pontiac made great money and essentially gave you very little for the 69 GP 428 HO engine upgrade.

Excellent info "Trishield" except for the cylinder head. I have seen 3 HO 4-speed cars in my life and all three of them had head cast #48. There is conflicting info on this cylinder head - perhaps someone else can clarify. From what I have found the 48 head was used on the 350HO engine and had a combustion chamber volume of 65 cc's. I think these heads were used on the HO 4-speed cars to give a boost to the compression ratio. This was something that was covered in "Pontiac Enthusiast" magazine before the magazine was discontinued. I will have to dig it up - I have it somewhere. Just wanted anyone who reads this and has head cast 48 on their HO 4-speed car - that it is not necessarily incorrect - to my knowledge anyway!!! Would love to hear more from the Pontiac tribe??