[Diego]

I saw an ad recently where a gentleman with a 428 HO was trying to find out how many of his cars were built. I sent him Simmonds' spreadsheet, which he already had. His car doesn't have AC, so per Fred Simmonds' chart, we know out of 986 HO/automatics, 706 had AC (although I've heard of a stick-shift anomaly out there). That means 280 HO automatics did not have air.

He was trying to figure out how many of those were Js and SJs. From my communication with him, he seems to be knowledgable with the production numbers for SJs and other items, but he was doing something that I felt wasn't statistically correct: Applying a rough percentage (10%) based on the number of GPs ordered with the SJ package, he arrived at approximately 28 SJs had the HO without AC. However, I pointed out that one cannot apply a percentage to a percentage like the HO/auto combo.

He's been quite gracious in this discussion, so I thought I'd chime in here and see what you experts have to say.

In my mind, I would be willing to bet more HOs were installed in SJs than Js, just because I feel there's a rule of thumb with top engines in top models. He, on the other hand, uses the logic that there were more Js built so it would stand to reason that more Js had the HO, not to mention anyone wanting to go faster would likely opt for the less loaded car.

So from your experience, what's your opinion on the distribution of HOs between the J and SJ?

[70pontiaction]

He's not using logic when he tries to calculate based on all models. He needs to consider probabilities that a certain model would have a certain engine instead.

I've been through two dozen (24) 1969/70 GPs in the past three decades. Yes, I am old. Here are my PERSONAL observations:

EVERY 428HO 390hp I ever owned (or heard about) was installed in a Model SJ. I have yet to see a 428HO installed in a Model J - not saying they didn't happen, just saying I haven't seen one.

1969 J experience:
I've owned nine 1969 Model Js with the 400 350hp and three with the 428 370hp (non-HO). Kept one Model J with 428 370hp and 4-speed and another with 400 T400 and 35 options (including ATC).

1969 SJ experience:
Along the way I owned six different 1969 Model SJs. ALL had the 428 engine, two were HOs. Kept three: my first GP, a castillian bronze/black 428HO T400, a green/green 428HO T400 parts car and a triple black 428 370hp non-HO non-AC 4-speed. The guy I bought this last one from sold it only because he found another SJ 4-speed car with the 428HO.

1970 J experience:
Owned four 400 350hp T400 Model Js. Bought (and still own) a blue with black leather Model J with 400 350hp 4-speed and AC. Still own a blue/blue 400 T400 driver and a brown/gold 400 T400 parts car.

1970 SJ experience:
Only have one: a bermuda blue/black 455HO T400 bench seat project.

I think that your logic of the more expensive engine being ordered in the more expensive model rings true - at least in my experience.

Hope this helps.

[Diego]

Thanks . . . I just wanted to have a more knowledgable person with experience give his two cents, so perfect - thanks!

Anyone else?

[69GP428HO4SP]

I guess I own one of the few Model J 428HO automatic cars, back in the day you could order some pretty odd combinations trying to figure it out now...

[Diego]

What odd combinations are you talking about?

Cuz I don't see a J with the HO as being odd.

[MRGPHO]

Originally Posted by Diego

Thanks . . . I just wanted to have a more knowledgable person with experience give his two cents, so perfect - thanks!

Anyone else?

Based on what I have seen, I think there were more SJ cars with the 428HO engine probably due to the fact that buyers capable of paying more for the SJ version were more likely to also pay for the top engine. Any GP with the 428HO is a desirable car regardless if it is a J or SJ. My impression is people get carried away with the "Barrett-Jackson" syndrome and try to drive up the value of a particular car by making claims of rarity not just based on the engine and trans choices, but by also including a long list of options, paint color, etc. The beauty of these cars is that back then the buyer could order the car the way they wanted and were not limited to specific "packages" that exist today. The photo in my avatar is my model J 428HO 4-speed car, that was ordered with custom wood steering wheel, tilt, gauge cluster (water temp + oil pressure), in dash tach, black leather interior, reclining passenger seat, and AM radio with reverb. The original owner wanted it that way so almost anything is possible!!

[428ho4spd]

Originally Posted by Diego

Thanks . . . I just wanted to have a more knowledgable person with experience give his two cents, so perfect - thanks!

Anyone else?

I too have owned a Model J 428HO with auto trans and have seen a few others over the years.

[joegpho]

Hi all - way back in 1990 when I found my converted 72 GP (with a WG coded 455 out of a 70 GP 4spd, with a M20 out of a 70 GTO) I recall a car as follows:
69 Model SJ (I think) with 428HO, automatic, no a/c. It was champaign in color, with a lighter vinyl top. I saw this car at Great Lakes Dragway on a Pontiac day all of those years ago. At the time the car was about $4500 and the seller stated "I can't give it away."
I never got the VIN but I still recall the sellers name - Brandon Zastrow.
The car piques my interest NOW and I have thought about tracking Mr. Zastrow down.
At any rate I think the car ran mid-14s; the SJ part sticks in my mind as the car had that sagged rear - air shocks with no auto-level pump working.
Again, I think it was a SJ and not a J - but both were built with 428HO, auto and no A/C.

Also - recall that there is a "the order form says you can't order it" 428HO, 4spd WITH A/C out there. That car is a Model J. Was in Hemmings in the late 90s for $17K.
I thought about chasing it but I actually wanted a car without A/C. I do have the invoice.

[Diego]

Thanks!

[Pontiyak]

[QUOTE=Diego;5395875]I saw an ad recently where a gentleman with a 428 HO was trying to find out how many of his cars were built. I sent him Simmonds' spreadsheet, which he already had. His car doesn't have AC, so per Fred Simmonds' chart, we know out of 986 HO/automatics, 706 had AC (although I've heard of a stick-shift anomaly out there). That means 280 HO automatics did not have air.

He was trying to figure out how many of those were Js and SJs. From my communication with him, he seems to be knowledgable with the production numbers for SJs and other items, but he was doing something that I felt wasn't statistically correct: Applying a rough percentage (10%) based on the number of GPs ordered with the SJ package, he arrived at approximately 28 SJs had the HO without AC. However, I pointed out that one cannot apply a percentage to a percentage like the HO/auto combo.
/QUOTE]

Diego. Your friend's car.
Non A/C car. Is it 3.55 gear car ?

Also think there is about a 1 to 4 Ratio on J-HO and SJ=HO cars. Odd that they are only around 10% but the HO is more prevalent in the SJ cars I have found.
Dave

[Diego]

I don't know, but I went through the old emails and found these codes pertain to his car:

SVT 348
351 388
394 412
444 501
551 564
324 051
051

['ol Pinion head]

Own a '69 428 HO model J. very well loaded project car, ATC, PW, AM-FM reverb, pwr bucket, tilt, wood wheel... Have parted two '70 model J's with 455 XF engine, and agree, quite rare to see the top option engine in the model J's.

['ol Pinion head]

joegpho, Brandon Zastrow is PY's Blackcat

[north]

While I agree in general with the idea that top models are more likely to have a top engine marketing can vary that rule.

The original C&D, Motor trend and R&T magazine articles for the 69 GP all refer to the SJ as being the luxury version and the J being the "cooking" version. This is odd since all of the features of the SJ are performance related (bigger engine, chrome engine dress, steeper axle, hiperf tires, lowered suspension, gauges etc) rather than luxury. I think it was simply because the J car that made the car mag rounds was a bobcat tuned 4speed HO car.

But those articles might have influenced customer and dealer perceptions. Also don't forget that some early 69 cars that were SJ's were billed as J's for some reason. So some 428 J's were actually SJ's.