[Pontiakerr]

I have a 69 400 4spd we are currently restoring. After sitting in our garage for years, we have decided to hire a shop to do the restoration because we are way too busy. Trying to decide a few things -

1. The car is numbers matching engine, never restored. We want to do a mild street build, do we build a separate block and leave the numbers matching engine untouched in the event of resale etc?

2. The motor. The motor is a 400 with #62 heads, unrestored. I have a spare set of #62 heads that were redone by a machine shop 10 years ago, but were never installed and put in storage. The heads had a comp cam kit installed, and were not ported. From my previous research, i understood these were great heads. In talking to one local resto shop they disagreed, and recommended I dont use these heads or cam kit at all.
- If I use the heads, what combo is recommended for the motor? I currently have a comp cam to go with it, 502/510 lift hydraulic roller. If I use this set up with a 400, would you take it to a machine shop and lean on their advice for what to order for the short block? I know the brands etc I need but I dont want to order anything that can not be used.

3. What would be a resonable price for the motor work, swap machine work etc on something like this? the local shop quoted us at 10-12k just to do the motor and swap it, along with everything that goes with it (oil pump motor mounts etc...) My husband thinks this is a little unreasonable, I am not sure.
(cross posted)

Thanks in advance

[b-man]

Without knowing your goals for the engine build it’s hard to say exactly.

However building an engine where you’re touching all the bases and adding to that the now very expensive hydraulic roller cam and lifters it’s not hard to have 10k in a moderate performance build.

Rebuilding the heads correctly for a performance engine requires new valves, guides, springs, retainers and keepers, stronger ARP rocker studs, hardened exhaust seats and resurfacing at least the combustion chamber side and likely the exhaust flange side. You’re looking at around 2k just to do it right. I doubt your spare pair of #62 heads were done that thoroughly maybe I’m wrong.

New forged pistons and rods are a must. Forget about rebuilding and reusing the factory cast rods, it makes no economic sense as aftermarket forged aren’t much more costly than rebuilding inferior cast factory rods. You may need to consider ordering a set of pistons with a small dish to lower the compression a bit to make the engine more compatible with the substandard fuels of today, a set of quality forged pistons can easily set you back $750 to $900 with rings and pins.

Grinding the crank and line boring the block along with boring the block for the new pistons using a torque plate are other expensive operations that start to add up.

Your local shop should be able to provide a detailed list of parts and machining operations which will be included in the build.

Your husband needs to understand that for a shop to pull and reinstall the engine and supply the pieces needed for the installation isn’t inexpensive. 12k for everything is about right.

Unless your local shop is well-versed in Pontiacs I’d advise to have the engine built by a Pontiac specialist, don’t get sucked into using your local shop purely out of convenience.

Define your goals and provide the camshaft specifications, knowing the lift only doesn’t tell us much. Also what exhaust system you’re planning on using. Are you trying to retain a factory look ? The original carburetor and intake manifold are good for 500 horsepower without a problem.

[tom s]

I would say about 2000 to R&R the engine,hand it to you and YOU take it to the machine shop.Without having to buy a new crank and a cam I would say the engine should be able to be built and handed back to you for 6-7K.You did not say if you already had the hyd roller lifters witch will be 700-1100 dollarsI always figure 1000 ish for pistons and rings and 700 ish for forged rods.Labor to build a complete engine in my area is $1500 not including taking it down.IMO,should be less than 9K.Tom

[Pontiakerr]

Originally Posted by b-man

provide the camshaft specifications, knowing the lift only doesn’t tell us much. .

Comp cam Hydraulic Roller Tappet, Advertised Duration 276/282, Lift .502/.510

[chiphead]

I estimate you could do a quality rebuild of a Pontiac 400, (with you doing the assembly) for about $6500. Add the 2K for engine R&R, and 1500 for incidentals, carburetor, exhaust, wires, hoses, motor mounts, fluids, etc, and you get over 10K pretty fast. Now that the cost is out of the way...

So is a shop doing the whole car or just the engine? Hard to tell from the term "doing a restoration". It can be anything from an engine swap to a full frame-off restoration.

If you're worried about the engine, wait till you get to paint and body. Whooo boy, that bill is gonna be $20K to do the basics nowadays. Be sure the shop gives you a soup-to-nuts estimate for everything. Lots of projects get halfway done and abandoned when the owner realizes it's gonna cost $40-75K for a shop to do a turnkey resto. This is not boogyman prices, this is what it costs to fix a classic in 2024.

I would absolutely find a engine shop that really knows Pontiac engines. Most shops don't care about them, they'll throw them together any which way, with bottom barrel parts that won't last. There was a guy on the forum just the the other day with a high dollar engine that got a cheap set of KB pistons. He can't eve run it hard for fear of it chunking a piston ring land.

A basic recipe that will live is:

reuse stock crank
reuse stock tin (oil pan, valvecovers, valley pan, etc)
new forged rods
Autotec forged pistons, dished to reduce compression to 9.5 for pump gas
Use the rebuilt 62 heads, have them checked out again by the pontiac shop
new balancer
blueprinted 60psi oil pump
hardened pump shaft
reuse stock intake and carb
HFT cam, like a 068, summit 2802, etc.
Have the block bored the smallest amount required (usually 30 over)
Have the block get the other usually shop proceduresI

That'll cost $4500-7500 depending on how much you can do yourself and what parts you can re-use.

No need for exotic stroker cranks, wild manifolds, expensive carburetor, etc. A basic 400 will easily make 370-425 HP and make you smile. My 67 has a '69 400 with 62 heads, its a fun mill.

I'd use a HFT to keep price down. A roller swap is going to add $1500 due to roller lifters and the changes to the heads. The roller cam will need different springs, taller valves, taller rocker studs, etc, it adds up.

Let us know how much specific engine parts selection and machine shop advice you need. The rabbit hole goes deep when it comes to engine work. We can recommend some pontiac specific builders with good reputations. There is one specific guy to stay away from, IYKYK......

[JLBIII]

I have a numbers matching 68 Firebird. Decided to redo the engine in it. After thinking about a little I decided to go with a 461 stroker kit in a different block and save the original engine and heads. The build included a hydraulic roller cam, period correct #16 heads w/intake and an 800 cfm carb I supplied. I R&R the engines myself. The complete engine broken in ready to run was over$12k. The new engine is in the car with 2,000 miles on it while the original engine rests under my workbench for now. Good luck with your build!

[HWYSTR455]

If you're already in the process of restoring the car, chances are you won't be selling it any time soon. And by the time you do go to sell it, it probably won't matter much if you have the original engine from it or not.

I'm not sure which machine shop you are using, but heed warning: there aren't many good ones left. You can search here how many times people have had issues with having machine work done.

I suggest using a known-good/reputable PONTIAC machine shop/engine builder and have them do it. Since you have time while the rest of the car is being done, you can probably get on a list or provide the parts you have to a shop and wait for it.

A reputable shop will inspect your parts and let you know what your options are.

If your goals are mild performance and mainly road-worthy, you can probably use all the parts you already have. Again, the builder will give you specific options tailored to your needs and expectations.

You can search here for reputable builders, and get an idea of who where what and how.

I will suggest Butler Performance, since they have a good reputation, and are capable of handling higher volumes with reasonable turn around times.

Some parts should be replaced for any engine, like pistons & rods, and some parts are less expensive to replace than to refub. Crankshafts can fall in that category, and if you have to replace it, a popular stroker crank would be a less expensive and a bonus.


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[jhein]

If you post your location maybe someone here knows a local builder they could recommend.

[b-man]

Here’s a link to 421 Pontiac engine build I had done by a very competent home builder, I supplied all the components and he used his trusted local machine shop and did the assembly work for me. There’s a cost breakdown near the end:

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=774638

This will give you a real world example of exactly what’s involved in getting a mildly modified Pontiac engine built or restored.

[tom s]

Bart,the cost breakdown I’m sure will be way more at going on 9 years ago now!Tom

[b-man]

Originally Posted by tom s

Bart,the cost breakdown I’m sure will be way more at going on 9 years ago now!Tom

Of course, however it gives a real world look at the actual cost back then and surely it’s up by likely 50% by now.

I already have more than 10k in parts for a 2276cc 170 hp VW engine I’m building now, no matter which brand you’re working on buying good parts is expensive and they’re going up in price every day.

[Verdoro 68]

Last year I had a local race shop quote me $15-18k for a full build before I decided to do it myself.

Back of the napkin, I easily had around $6500-$7k in parts for mine last year, but it wasn't your baseline rebuild. Would obviously be less if you're reusing your tins, crank and stick with a flat tappet.

Stroker kit with custom pistons from Butler $2500
Roller cam $500
Johnson roller lifters $800
Sims timing chain $300
Valves and valve train (rockers, springs, retainers, etc) ~$1000
Canton oil pan $200
Tomahawk valley pan $150
Tomahawk windage tray $130
Repro timing cover $175
Durabond cam bearings $50
King main bearings $150
Butler oil pump $200
Plus a few hundred bucks of other odds and ends I'm sure I'm forgetting like gaskets and seals. Prices have gone up even since I did my build.

Labor was something like this:
$1k to have the block checked out, honed and cleaned with the cam bearings installed.
$2000 to get the heads done.
$350 carb rebuild

I assembled the engine and did all the R&R so 10-12k does not sound unreasonable. These things aren't cheap to build the right way.

In contrast, back in 2009 I paid $4k for what I'd consider an out the door basic rebuild with a friends and family discount. Stock rods and crank, dished Ross pistons and a HFT cam and lifters. Those days are long gone.

Regarding building another block and storing the original - my take is unless you're going to run it hard and race it, use the original iron.

[grivera]

If you’re near Oklahoma, Len Williams Auto Machine can do it for $6395 based on his website prices and that’s with his core. It should be several hundred less if you take in your engine. His is a Pontiac shop with great reputation. http://lenwilliamsautomachine.com/400_Long_Block.html

[Jay S]

The cost depends a lot on where your located and who you find to do it. It can vary a lot, you kind of have to look around and ask, there may be a good shop close that you don’t know about. On here is a good place to ask as any for anything Pontiac.

I know an engine shop here in the Midwest (Nebraska) that just did a 64’ 389 that needed EVERYTHING, heads rebuilt, bronze guide and hardened seats, everything on the short block reground, Keith black pistons, flat tappet cam, (summit 2802 camshaft and Crower cam savers lifters, 988 springs) stock rebuild in a 64 GTO, it was about 9K.

If the project has a set of fresh machined 62s ready to go and a complete Compcams 423 HR cam your several thousand dollar ahead to use those parts. If your looking to cut costs, hard to overlook that.

If the original heads were 62s, and this projects already has an extra set with one already machined, I have a difficult time understanding the advice of a builder saying those heads are a poor choice. But, maybe the builder is going off some HP goals that were set though. In a 400 that HR cam and stock 62 head combo is good for about 430 HP with pretty much stock everything except for adding headers.

We have this exact combo that was described. The same HR cam, 408 CID, stock 62 heads, headers, stock intake and good for about 430HP@5000 RPM, in a mid 9s pump gas combo. We even have a small Nitrous system to put it up past 600HP. I would put the original engine back in as long as the project is not getting more than 600 HP. There a good stroker options also that really don’t add a lot for cost. The cam mentioned works well in 3.75” and 4” stroke combos.

[locomotivebreath]

I think that a reasonable estimate in today’s economy . I did my original 400 with 16’s in 2012 at Tony Bischoffs ( BES ) in Indiana and it was about $7500 , that was with some mild porting and a dyno session . However , I already had the HR cam & lifters , HS rockers , new front timing cover , sent the carb out for resto , had the origional water pump and distributor rebuilt . So there was another 2k in 2012 prices . BES is a bit high but is Pontiac knowledgable .

[Pontiakerr]

Thanks for all the responses

The resto shop is planning to do everything under the hood for now, motor swap and everything that goes with it. I’m also getting quotes on the wiring harness. Body work will go on back burner for now. We have already rebuilt the transmission, rear end and clutch.

The cam numbers are 51-423-9 I can’t seem to find any info on this from comp. The shop is telling me I should go with a different cam. We are planning to do a 468 stroker.

After reading all these posts I think we will just build the current engine.

[jhein]

That cam is on the side small for a 468 cid motor with those heads. What kind of compression are you planning?

I have the Butler version of the Comp 433 HR cam. That is basically one step up from the 423 with a 112 LSA. I wouldn't want any less cam in my motor.

[locomotivebreath]

That’s close to the Bullet hr that I run in my 406 , it has excellent street manners . It would be way small in a 468 .

[Jay S]

Using the 423 cam and bigger 4.25” cranks keep the compression in the compression in the lower 9s, or even the upper 8s and it will run well. Will need dished pistons.

[chiphead]

Running a 4.25" crank and a roller cam changes the calculus when choosing heads. The 62 heads are no longer a good match for that. The small chambers will require a large piston dish, which hurts efficiency and quench. That makes the motor more fuel hungry and harder to tune. Also, the 62s can't flow enough air to support a 468 with a roller cam.

When going stroker crank and roller cam, aftermarket aluminum heads start making more sense. A box stock E-head or KRE D-port is much better than a set of fully reworked 62 irons. It costs the same, maybe less once you factor in roller cam mods and the porting the 62s would need, to even approach the performance of an aftermarket head. The aluminum heads are available with 72 or 87CC chambers, and can easily run pump gas with flattop pistons. A 468 with an Old Faithful II or stump puller cam (well documented aftermarket roller grinds), ported AL heads at 10.5 would make 560 horses, easy.

The other thing about big power is, a healthy 468 will easily hurt the 4-speed and rear end with a few good clutch dumps. That BOP 8.2 is made outta glass, it'll twist axles if you look at it hard.