[RamAir]

Originally Posted by 2manyT/A'S

Just to sum this up........(if I'm reading the codes right?)

We have a 1970 400? block cast on May 19/70 in a 70 T/A vin (228870N122912) that was built in the first week of June 1970 with a block code stamp WS & partial vin of 29N122912?

Is your car a survivor,restored OR basket case?

Is displacement (400) cast above pan rail behind fuel pump?

Has block cast # below rear of PS cyl.head been tampered with of modified?

The car appears to be original except a re-spray, but in excellant condition

The Block casting # has not been tampered with

I will have to verify the (400) cast tomorrow

[mscicluna007]

their is two other partial VINs you can look for also. One on the Cowl under the Passenger side guard under the heater blower motor. Might be hard to see but will be their.

The next is on your gearbox but it will be hard to see without taking a thousand photos blindly but if your gearbox is out it will be easy.

[2manyT/A'S]

Not wanting to hijack this thread.........,BUT while I have ALL of the "eagle eyes" here...what's your take on THIS block stamp....?

[RamAir]

So...The consensus is a miss stamp from the factory? Everything else on the car is stamped and date coded correct so I have no reason to believe that the engine was re-stamped.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

If it were me, the next step would be to check the locations where Fremont and Atlanta stamped their VIN's. The normal area (where yours is stamped now) remains clean and fresh for pickings on most Atlanta and Fremont blocks.
-- just saying - its another possibility.

I've seen quite a few (dozens) mistamps/double strikes-
but just have never seen one where a chunk popped out under a couple digits and then had just a couple/few hand stamped singularly.

It seems like they would have just moved over and hit the gangstamp again.
{speculation}
But much quicker for a line worker.

The 9 being in the year model placement "could" have been an error made by someone doing the devils work who wasn't fully up to speed on all details. fwiw

That late in the game - a faktry worker would have been well acquainted with the 0 by then. And mistakes CAN happen, i realize.
Just laying it out there if you want to exhaust all possibilities.

[Formulabruce]

The "Gang stamp" holder was manually "loaded" Different one used for the VIN, and at a different time. This is Human error. Could be the zero dropped on the floor,or the guys stamped so many 69's, it just happened they threw in a 9. To get whats shown, the last digits, the holder would have been empty aside from the last two, which means it could have gone sideways on a direct hit. Also notice the vin number mess ups are a lot more common than the Engine builders stampings?
At 45 cars a second rolling off the Norwood line, its totally believable

[2manyT/A'S]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

The "Gang stamp" holder was manually "loaded" Different one used for the VIN, and at a different time. This is Human error. Could be the zero dropped on the floor,or the guys stamped so many 69's, it just happened they threw in a 9. To get whats shown, the last digits, the holder would have been empty aside from the last two, which means it could have gone sideways on a direct hit. Also notice the vin number mess ups are a lot more common than the Engine builders stampings?
At 45 cars a second rolling off the Norwood line, its totally believable

45 cars a MINUTE,is that right?

[RamAir]

Appreciate all the input and expert opinions. I am going to go ahead and commit to buy the car today as a numbers matching engine.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 2manyT/A'S

45 cars a MINUTE,is that right?

45 cars per hour is correct.

That's actually a little on the slow side, as most of my (truck) experience has been 60 jobs per hour and the Pontiac plant would gust up to 70 per hour during peak times. Feeder conveyers and the body/paint shop would run faster than that to keep a slight buffer at all times.

K

[RamAir]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

If it were me, the next step would be to check the locations where Fremont and Atlanta stamped their VIN's. The normal area (where yours is stamped now) remains clean and fresh for pickings on most Atlanta and Fremont blocks.
-- just saying - its another possibility.

I've seen quite a few (dozens) mistamps/double strikes-
but just have never seen one where a chunk popped out under a couple digits and then had just a couple/few hand stamped singularly.

It seems like they would have just moved over and hit the gangstamp again.
{speculation}
But much quicker for a line worker.

The 9 being in the year model placement "could" have been an error made by someone doing the devils work who wasn't fully up to speed on all details. fwiw

That late in the game - a faktry worker would have been well acquainted with the 0 by then. And mistakes CAN happen, i realize.
Just laying it out there if you want to exhaust all possibilities.

Where on the block would the Fremont and Atlanta blocks be stamped? I was under the impression they were all stamped in the same location.

[RicksGTO]

Fremont had a habit of stamping the partial VIN up high and to the left of the engine code and engine unit number just below the deck for the passenger head. Sometimes it will be upside down or at any angle they felt like stamping. Not sure if Atlanta stamping was in another spot or similar so someone else will have to chime in on that.

[Formulabruce]

Originally Posted by 2manyT/A'S

45 cars a MINUTE,is that right?

lol no mis spoke, a car every 45 seconds, still that IS fast, and one of 3 was was a Pontiac

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Atlanta was doing about the same thing as Fremont.
The area circled in Red is where they usually stamped their VIN's.

Leaves the "normal" area all nice and virgin for the devils work.
Majority don't know about this.
Its not an area most would clean and check for evidence of previous stampings and/or lack of broach marks or inconsistent broach marks. Thin spread of filler or heavy prime-paint will usually cover these stampings nicely as those plants generally tend to be lighter depth.

This is probably a bit too advanced detective work for most to grasp.
But those blocks are the prime candidates for this type work.

This block also looks to have heavy paint materials on the facing
particularly in the upper extremities.

Doesn't mean for any fact at all, that there has been any monkey business.
Just means an advanced buyer might do more thorough investigations.
And be completely satisfied when all measures are exhausted and passed.

we all spend our time and money in different ways.

[RamAir]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Atlanta was doing about the same thing as Fremont.
The area circled in Red is where they usually stamped their VIN's.

Leaves the "normal" area all nice and virgin for the devils work.
Majority don't know about this.
Its not an area most would clean and check for evidence of previous stampings and/or lack of broach marks or inconsistent broach marks. Thin spread of filler or heavy prime-paint will usually cover these stampings nicely as those plants generally tend to be lighter depth.

This is probably a bit too advanced detective work for most to grasp.
But those blocks are the prime candidates for this type work.

This block also looks to have heavy paint materials on the facing
particularly in the upper extremities.

Doesn't mean for any fact at all, that there has been any monkey business.
Just means an advanced buyer might do more thorough investigations.
And be completely satisfied when all measures are exhausted and passed.

we all spend our time and money in different ways.

OK...I have added 3 more pictures on the photobucket link showing the Block Casting Number, The "400" Casting, and I sanded and rubbed the area you indicated and did not find any evidence of previous stamping.



http://s1115.photobucket.com/albums/...rotter54/70TA/

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

It takes years and years and hundreds of various specimens to get a good grip on block stampings. Too much for a crash course all in one shot over the internet.
Not many here are in tune with all this.

The EUN being in synch means very little. It mostly follows the dating, and the dating is undisturbed and within reason. Although on the tight side.
And we have no way to document your EUN.

It is a 70 400 block.
They used that part number in 69 and 70.
Most were 2 bollt main - some 70's were 4 bolt main.

The VIN stamp on that block has no less than 5 different defects.
I have never seen one this messed up that was legit.
(*not saying this one is absolutely bogus - only saying what i said)
We sometimes see them with 1 or 2 defects.
Most have zero defects.

With that in mind - i/me personally - would go to the full extent.

It doesnt look like you did anything in the "Fremont/Atlanta" zone.
It needs to be wiped down with lacquer thinner to the metal.
If anything is hiding - its disquised UNDER the paint - and there is plenty of paint there.
Especially compared to only remnants of factory paint at the rear of the engine.

In this particular case - i would wipe down the whole passenger side front face from the WS code all the way down to the oil pan.

This should be a 4 bolt main block also.
They are not used in many Pontiac applications.
I would remove the oilpan and verify that also.

If i found nothing tampered in the bare cast iron after removing all said paint - and it was a 4 bolt main block - i would be satisfied.

Naturally you are free to do as you wish.

Just supplying first hand knowledge of what goes on, and how to protect yourself.
Money aint cheap , and neither are matching #'s 70 TA 4 speed cars.

Compare that VIN stamp, to this other one.
Run a strait edge under both VIN's in the pictures.
The ghost 8 is not aligned - nor is anything aligned after 1229 - looks like about 4 different characters - 2 of those should have aligned with the rest.

And why is an 8 even in there.

Huge gap after 1229.

The 29N that should have been 20N (done 3/4 the way through 70 model year - not beginning of 70 model year)

The Size and Font of the last 1 and 2 , are not the same Size and Font as the other 1 and 2's. Check them out visually and with measuring calipers.

i specialized in buying and selling Pontiac engines for about 10 years in the 80's and 90's. Have seen all sorts of oddities , and forgeries. Can never be too careful.

This one is either tampered - or the goofed uppest factory VIN stamp i have ever seen.
so its 50-50 at best.

Someday you might have to sell it.
Better to find out as much now, than later.
i don't stand to gain or lose a dime on it, just trying to help as many as i can.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

In this particular case - i would wipe down the whole passenger side front face from the WS code all the way down to the oil pan.

By that i meant wiped down to the bare cast iron with lacquer thinner.

[165th]

I have been watching this thread and agree with everything BVZ and some others have noted. Thank you for the education on this topic.

I am also curious to see if the wipe down of the passenger side reveals any sign of a stamping. If not, then the curiosity would rise in that the 29N1229 does look factory gang stamped on virgin broach marks, and if no other signs of a factory stamp on the block, Then these thoughts come to mind:

A. The 29N1229 could be a factory boo boo as BVZ has noted, but with only two errors.... the 9 instead of 0 and incomplete final two numbers. Even those two errors are pretty large in my mind, especially the 9. I don't know the process for setting the gang, but in my mind I can see the line worker just changing the sequential last digit or so engine by engine, and never touching the front part of the gang letters.

B. Maybe along the way in the last 40 years someone noticed the flaw and started banging on the block to finish the vin (but of course this doesn't explain the ghost 8).

C. If a restamp why would the restamper put the wrong year in, partially gang and mess up the year and last two digits so badly? That part doesn't add up.

Just my 2 cents.

[Keith Seymore]

In the final assembly plant any time we messed up a stamped VIN on the frame the correct process was to "X" out the offending digits and restamp the correct digits directly above (by hand, individually). Not sure if the same procedure was used or required in the engine plant.

The block shown here (with the phantom 8) - that's pretty messy. Doesn't look legit to me.

K

[RamAir]

New pictures posted. I rubbed and fine sanded for a couple hours. I didn't discover any other markings. I'm still of the thinking that it's the original block. And I agree with 165th's logic of why would someone restamp an incorrect # on the block. It's probably doesn’t matter at this point since the owner didn't accept my offer. I'm certainly not comfortable upping my offer since I am reluctant to own another "storied" car anyway. Thanks everyone again for all the expert input...much appreciated.

http://s1115.photobucket.com/albums/...rotter54/70TA/

['ol Pinion head]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

In the final assembly plant any time we messed up a stamped VIN on the frame the correct process was to "X" out the offending digits and restamp the correct digits directly above (by hand, individually). Not sure if the same procedure was used or required in the engine plant.

The block shown here (with the phantom 8) - that's pretty messy. Doesn't look legit to me.

K

Never ran into an "X"ed out VIN on a '68-79 Pontiac V8. Have carefully examined an obscene amt of blocks in original cars, in partscars, at swappers, at machinists, friend's collections. For the decade plus I had a core deal going on 400 Pontiacs, used a Forney wire wheel on face of each Pontiac block to reveal the partial VIN's of every one I brought in. When sold, I noted the date cast, ASM number, partial VIN, & if block had ever been bored. All in old logbooks.

On several blocks in original cars, I have ran across two partial VIN numbers, one laid over the other at an angle. It took careful cleaning & study with magnifying glass to get all of the digits of the 1st partial VIN.

400guy, imo, it's a good deal the seller did not take your offer.