[Squidward]

I've been mentally tossing around my future plans for AC in the 72 Lemans. Car was purchased as a basket case, and there had been some level of fire under the dash that caused the heater box to be a loss, as well as most of the under dash wiring. I have rewired the car since then with an aftermarket universal kit.

I figure I have a few options.

1. Install Classic Auto Air or Vintage Air aftermarket system. I did this on my 67 FB (CAA), and it was a decent kit with decent results. It definitely left my underhood/firewall cleaner with more space.

2. Install factory setup with POA valve. Nothing blew colder than the the old factory POA systems. I have a complete 73 Firebird ac system, including the control tubeage, etc. I think the bolt up would be the same, and would require compressor/condenser/drier/TXV. Maybe use a Sanden compressor?

3. Install factory setup as above, but use a later 70's evap box with orifice tube and accumulator. Maybe use a Sanden.

I have a nice dash with most of the duct work intact, except a couple of the transition duct pieces to the outer vents are missing. I would only need a couple pieces, but I am not seeing repro's available.

So... thoughts? And have any of you had to do anything creative with duct work to get from the main distribution manifold to the outer vents?

Thx!

['ol Pinion head]

If your '72 is a factory AC car, not that hard to go back with stock components. The oem system, propperly reinstalled with R12 wll freeze you out. Cheapest route is to find a project or fresh kill partscar and pull everything. put $$$ in new hoses, new drier, and if needed, new condenser. If the '72 was originally a factory non AC car, going with factory AC system will be a ton of work.

[Ben M.]

I've done a variety over the years, all of the systems work well when set up right, adjusted correctly, and filled properly. If you have access to all of the "correct for '72" parts, then tossing a new Sanden style compressor on it with brand new hoses is probably the cheapest and most reliable solution. Retrofitting a more modern drier\accumulator setup is ok, but more work and more parts to hunt down and modify to fit.

I'm running my '72 with R-134a in a cycling POA setup and it runs great. I converted it over 7 years ago after the original POA setup that had worked for 7 years without issue until the compressor gave up the ghost. I also have a '73 with VIR in a R-12 setup that blows 40F out the vents even at 95F and 90% humidity we've been having lately. New hoses and a compressor that won't leak = win.

The Classic Auto Air\Vintage Air systems people really like to talk about being great, but if your car is a factory AC car I don't think it makes much sense to use their conversion kits.

[Squidward]

My biggest issue is that there is literally nothing for me to start with except for most of the ducting. Evap box was long gone, heater box is way toasted. But I have the 73 Firebird system, so I think that might be compatible.

One thing I noted last night, tho, is that the poa valve on the 73 system is mounted in board, unlike the 72 which mounts the poa outboard. Getting a hose line routed might be tough. I think I will go with a late 70's evap box with orifice tube and cycling compressor. It would be simplest to make work without worry that the poa is bad.

I am at the point of dropping in the engine, and of course evap install is easier without an engine.

[HWYSTR455]

Ok. Lot of moving targets here, lemme see if I can make some useful suggestions.

The evap box is available aftermarket repop, don't believe it's that expensive, so look into that. You could buy a good used box, but, you still have to have the evap core flushed & psi tested. So it might just be easier/less expensive to buy a new one. Some places have firewall-forward kits, maybe price shop that.

With the inner fender well out, you can do an evap box R&R, even with the engine in. Heater box is a little more difficult, but it can be done without removing the dash.

If you use the OE evap box, look up the thread for a blower motor that blows harder than the original, I think it costs lest than the OE replacement one. I got one from Rock Auto I think for $19 shipped.

POA setup vs cycling, the POA is hands down a better setup, and any good AC shop will advise to use a POA. Some POAs are rebuildable, some not, and believe me, even a NOS POA you want checked and calibrated, so it's sometimes best to just buy one from a shop that does that, like Classic Auto Air or the like. (especially if you're buying other stuff. And this is regardless if you do R12 or 134.

The 3 pictured on the left at this location are rebuildable, the others not:

http://www.classicautoair.com/POA-Valve-Home.html

If you do a full resto on the evap box, you probably want to look at the hose upgrade kits, and convert to threaded adapters, instead of using the clamps. Less chance of leaks, and easier to manage in general. Your call on that one, but you will at least have to buy new hose.

If you do the hose upgrade kit, you need to have the condenser ends changed. Not a bad thing, because, you don't have a condenser, right? New condensers are are way more efficient, so you want a new one, they come in dual pass I think, and just order the one that has the fittings. Even if you have one, just like the evap core, you would have to have it flushed & psi tested anyway.

Compressor. Do you want a total OE look, or are you ok with going to a Sanden? I say Sanden is the way to go, but that's a call you have to make.

Heater box and fresh air valve in kick panel. Uhg. You're best bet there is a donor car, because of all the controls/vacuum lines. Wash it, seal it, use a new heater core, and make sure it works perfectly before install. I'm not sure what's still available and what's repopped, but guess you could shop it. Shame, I just gave a perfect box away, with all the hoses, cables, etc. Not sure if the person is going to use it, but if you want me to, I can ask, and get you two in touch. (PM me if so)

If you're going through the trouble of restoring the AC, by all means, do a thorough job, do it right. Lay it out, a solid plan, and know what direction you're going from the start. If you do, the system will last decades, and I'm not exaggerating. I rebuilt my system around about '95, and it lasted until I took it off the road last year. The OE setup lasted until '93 or so. (my '71 LeMans)

.

[Ben M.]

F-body boxes and A-body boxes are different I believe. I know the '72 & '73 A-body were each different and different from the '75, '79, '80 F-body ones. I think mixing and matching different years and body styles is asking for trouble and headaches.

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

With the inner fender well out, you can do an evap box R&R, even with the engine in. Heater box is a little more difficult, but it can be done without removing the dash.

Yup, definitely. It's not fun, but definitely doable. Big car, A-body, F-body, I've been able to get them all off via removing the inner fender with the engine\transmission\hood still in place.

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Some POAs are rebuildable, some not, and believe me, even a NOS POA you want checked and calibrated, so it's sometimes best to just buy one from a shop that does that, like Classic Auto Air or the like. (especially if you're buying other stuff. And this is regardless if you do R12 or 134.

Ditto. Classic Auto Air and other places aren't expensive to source a brand new "calibrated for your application" POA valve. If the system is missing or open\off the car for any length of time it just makes sense to spend the $150 or so and get a known good one with a warranty (and Classic Auto Air is great on their warranty).

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

If you do a full resto on the evap box, you probably want to look at the hose upgrade kits, and convert to threaded adapters, instead of using the clamps. Less chance of leaks, and easier to manage in general. Your call on that one, but you will at least have to buy new hose.

I like this idea, I went with new hoses and the original style crimped fittings (not the worm clamps). Threaded connectors are great, just an o-ring to seal but at this age having the hoses replaced makes sense.

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Compressor. Do you want a total OE look, or are you ok with going to a Sanden? I say Sanden is the way to go, but that's a call you have to make.

I agree. Unless you're doing a factory correct restoration, there's zero reason to use an older style A6 design compared to the modern Sanden styles. Mainly because they don't leak out their front seal like the A6 does in time. Spend the extra and do it right. It won't look 100% factory correct but will drag less for less load on the engine and last a long time.

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

If you're going through the trouble of restoring the AC, by all means, do a thorough job, do it right. Lay it out, a solid plan, and know what direction you're going from the start. If you do, the system will last decades, and I'm not exaggerating.

Once again I'm going to really stress this and agree here again. Decide what you're going to do (R134a vs R12, hose types, factory boxes or not, etc) and STICK to it. You'll spend a ton of time and energy getting parts that you may not be able to use if you keep changing your mind. If it's a good seal with new parts, it'll last for many many years.

['ol Pinion head]

PM sent your way Squidward

[Squidward]

Great ideas.

Let's face it. The CAA system in my 67 FB keeps the engine bay clean. But I don't see an aftermarket system to fit the 72 Lemans. And I don't want to get stuck in some weird fabricating world on interior parts. Sheetmetal? No prob. Fabricating the other stuff? Not so much. I haven't looked into Vintage Air yet.

Now that I see the link with a sub $200 new POA, that makes a very viable solution. Ideally, I'd like to do a poa system if I can come up with a part source. Sanden compressor? Yes. Smaller, lighter, better? Yes, please. I don't care much about originality - the Sanden will go nicely next to my FiTech. I like "original appearing", but don't have the patience for detailed resto stuff. I will use R134.

Modern condenser is a given, and I fully expect to have a custom set of hoses made based on plumbing parameters.

HWYSTR, I think the tipping point was seeing availability of the POA valves.

OPH, PM sent back. We might be able to do some horse trading. I have stuff to clear out that I shouldn't hold onto anymore.

[Squidward]

So tell me this... What are the differences between the 69 and 72 dashes from a functional point of view? CAA and Vintage make a 69 GTO package. 72 is not available. But when I look at 69 and 72 dashes, they look pretty much the same. Any insight? This is my first A body, btw.

I will call CAA on Monday to see if they can shed a light on why there is not a system for 72.

[Ben M.]

Originally Posted by Squidward

So tell me this... What are the differences between the 69 and 72 dashes from a functional point of view?

As far as I can tell, from my experience having had a '69 & several '72s, the dashes are the same. The ductwork is the same (I put '69 ductwork in my '72 when it was broken). The controls themselves are different... but only because in '69-71 they used a heater shutoff valve control attached to the temperature slider assembly and they did away with that in '72 - it's a worthwhile upgrade in my opinion, I converted my '72 to it.

I'd call them and find out though, but I would think it's because of something like "we haven't ever installed the system in one of those cars so we can't say it'll fit until we do that."

It's like they made a kit for the '69-72 Chevelle and for years listed no available option for the '68-72 cars, when we know that with a little modification to the Chevelle kit it would probably work just fine (and did for a few people who used it).

[Squidward]

Plot thickens. OK, so I will call CAA maybe this morning when I get home and see what's up.

It's either aftermarket from CAA, or do the factory style POA with a Sanden. These two choices will come down to which one ends up being the least BS for install, and then cost.

I see that the CAA 69 GTO setup includes their control unit with the kit so that you don't have to convert the factory controller. That's the route I would go anyways. It was one of my main criticisms when I did the kit on my 67 FB. I struggled converting my factory controls to the integrator fly-by-wire setup.

[HWYSTR455]

I think the difference for 70-72 is the lap vents, I too have noticed it's not 'listed' for those cars.

I'm in the same boat, will be doing a system in my 70/71 project, so will definitely figure something out. I did a smoothie plate on the firewall, so don't really have a choice. I will cover the install on my build thread, so in case I forget to post here, can always look there.

I talked to a friend who's done VA systems for over 10 years, literally 100s of them, but mostly custom setups in rods, etc. When I asked him about the electronic sol/controls, and if there are a lot of failures, he says he had seen only one in his years, and VA immediately replaced it free of charge. I asked about the 70-72 kits and he didn't know, he hadn't done one, but said pretty much what I thought, give them a call, sure it's been done.

.

[Interceptor]

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=770548

[Squidward]

Originally Posted by Interceptor

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=770548

How funny. I forgot about that. I even participated in that thread.

[Squidward]

I called CAA this morning and talked to a tech. I asked if the 69 GTO kit might fit 1972. He said he wouldn't be comfortable selling a 69 GTO kit to me to see if it was close. He said the 69 GTO kit was based off a car without factory ac to begin with. Also, he felt that the evap and heater core tubes that protrude through the firewall would end up in less than ideal place. He also had concerns for underdash dimensions. His recommendation was to put together a custom kit, with vent adapters and a custom/universal evap box.

Another drawback was that the evap unit has 4 air duct outlets available. 1 goes to DS dash vent, 1 to the PS dash vent, and 2 to the center dash vent. That leaves none for lap vents. Not sure if it's a big deal to not have lap vents.

I am working on putting together parts for a stock style system. An aftermarket adventure will always be there for me if I decide to go there.

[HWYSTR455]

Yeah, the more I thought about the lap vents, the more I feel they really aren't that much of a benefit. The OE ones didn't really blow that hard anyway, or at least not as much as what would make them very useful IMO.

The thing with the aftermarket units, or an add-on to an original non-OE A/C setup, is the hole in the firewall. The block off panels look pretty good, but the real way to do it would be a smoothie late. Once you do that, you're committed.

I think that was the driving factor(s) when I did the 442, I didn't want it to look like an add-on, or deal with the hole/plate.

.

[Ben M.]

The lap vents (crotch cooler!) aren't necessary or even that great, but they are noticeable. I can definitely tell a difference in my '73 these days when it's 95F outside and the AC is blowing cold. The seat\lap area does get some extra cooling. Not much, but it helps. I wouldn't rule those out as a deal killer though.

[70455HOVert]

I can tell you that the lady riding with me during Power Tour enjoyed the lap coolers on the very hot days....

[HWYSTR455]

Yeah, I was out in the 442 the other day and specifically was paying attention to the lap blowers and their' usefulness, and would have to say, with shorts on, it was appreciated! Not a deal breaker, and will see if I can make them work. If it's not too much of a hassle, I will take the time.

.

[Interceptor]

I plan on putting one together this winter, 70 GTO non-AC. If there is a 4th outlet I plan to find a way to run it to the back seat area.

Has anyone installed both the CAA and Vintage Air systems in 68-72 GTO/Lemans? What are the differences? Which is a cleaner install?

Also, where can I get an OEM-style center dash vent assembly for a 70?