[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"Tom. Your full of crap. I NEVER said anything about the Tiger heads??????????????????"

Wouldn't be the first time I made a Fat Finger in typing. INTAKE!

I did ask about the Tiger intake but he ran all year without issues.

Why bring the TIGER INTAKE deal up in the first place? That is Whining too, Ken.

Back to Whining, You are right about the Ford deal vs the Chebby deal. My old boss whined to the Trans Am officials when Penske had his 30 ft tall fuel station rig that would fill a Trans Am fuel tank in 15 seconds. "The Unfair Advantage" Mark Donahue called it. You get an "Unfair Advantage" by looking for it, working for it, and then making it work, not by whining about the rules.

Tom V.

[BruceWilkie]

And the Mopar guys complained for years about their little 2.08/1.74 valves vs Pontiacs with 2.11/1.77 valves. Yet the Mopars never complained they had 4.32 and larger bores vs our little 4.12-4.21 we were once saddled with.

30 plus years and the squeaky hinge gets the oil, never fix the rotten door. POLITICS all the same.
Keep after them John

[Mo]

Question, if Bruce M didn't sell his car how much weight would have been added to his combo?

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by Mo

Question, if Bruce M didn't sell his car how much weight would have been added to his combo?

Ya have to remember that EVERYTHING is factored around the Chevy Big Block.

Because it is the highest ever produced major *drag racing engine* combo (next to the sbc and Ford people might argue the SBF) in the last 50 years.
You have to start somewhere for a basis to compare all things. All shortblocks aftermarket can be said to be fairly Basically equal in a limited factory style racing application. The heads and intake control the playing field.

Lynn. I agree. But knowing the Pontiac engine combos were gonna be refactored as it was all over their site for the past month or two. I think I would have brought Tony (BES) to the gun fight. Or maybe they already asked him his opinion as he has done a few of them with constant dyno testing with Pontiac? Only John & the powers that be know the whole story ?????
Posting on a Pontiac forum board about "taking away the weight break" given to Pontiac does what? except stir shi*t John is used to doing. LOL.

They didn't add more weight then the other Chevys have to carry to the Pontiac, they just took the weigh break given to the Pontiac away based on ETs and others in his class bitching. Now it's more of a cu.in to weight heads up deal.
Yes the heads allowed for each is hard to factor and don't know how they come to their basis for factoring.

Why do you think NHRA Comp racers set a class on fire, get refactored and sell their stuff the next year. Look at all those SBC oddball engine combos in COMP. From 260 cu.in to 340's. They find the loophole and take advantage of it. Make tons of win and sponsor sticker money then sell to someone not knowing that refactoring is comming for that deal. John tried it this year.

Can it be reversed? Doubt it, unless JOHN hmself takes up the cause as he is the Only Pure Pontiac power running in that class.

I did hear a rumor that it was based on ET/MPH times round for round. Not event for event.

Next.

[Herb Hagan]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

Ya have to remember that EVERYTHING is factored around the Chevy Big Block.

There's your answer John...Put a BB Chevy in it, kick ASS at their own game and then whine at the end of the season that BB Chebbies need to be refactored!

[J.C.you]

get the kre HP head approved at the old weight. i believe it will be within 25hp of the tiger head.

[John Langer]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

Ya have to remember that EVERYTHING is factored around the Chevy Big Block.

Because it is the highest ever produced major *drag racing engine* combo (next to the sbc and Ford people might argue the SBF) in the last 50 years.
You have to start somewhere for a basis to compare all things. All shortblocks aftermarket can be said to be fairly Basically equal in a limited factory style racing application. The heads and intake control the playing field.

Lynn. I agree. But knowing the Pontiac engine combos were gonna be refactored as it was all over their site for the past month or two. I think I would have brought Tony (BES) to the gun fight. Or maybe they already asked him his opinion as he has done a few of them with constant dyno testing with Pontiac? Only John & the powers that be know the whole story ?????
Posting on a Pontiac forum board about "taking away the weight break" given to Pontiac does what? except stir shi*t John is used to doing. LOL.

They didn't add more weight then the other Chevys have to carry to the Pontiac, they just took the weigh break given to the Pontiac away based on ETs and others in his class bitching. Now it's more of a cu.in to weight heads up deal.
Yes the heads allowed for each is hard to factor and don't know how they come to their basis for factoring.

Why do you think NHRA Comp racers set a class on fire, get refactored and sell their stuff the next year. Look at all those SBC oddball engine combos in COMP. From 260 cu.in to 340's. They find the loophole and take advantage of it. Make tons of win and sponsor sticker money then sell to someone not knowing that refactoring is comming for that deal. John tried it this year.

Can it be reversed? Doubt it, unless JOHN hmself takes up the cause as he is the Only Pure Pontiac power running in that class.

I did hear a rumor that it was based on ET/MPH times round for round. Not event for event.

Next.

Ken, I dont know where you get your information but you are way off and dont have a clue.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Then enlighten me John and tell us all why you feel you were done wrong.

Don't just post they added 100 lbs and bitch.

What part is wrong or I don't have a clue.

[John Langer]

Here is the deal. The NMCA like Chevrolet, WalMart, Sears, etc is a business. The owner of the series have a family to feed, house payment to make, etc. Tony at BES built my motor. Everyone dyno's their engine there. Even some motors that he doesnt build. Tony feels that the rules last year were spot on. The only change he said he would make would be another 25lbs for the glide. Now out of all of the motors in the class, I have done the most R&D, tried the most parts (headers, cam, carb spacers, carbs, intake rocker arms, etc) to extrac the most power out of my combo and have made the most passes. There were a few competitors in the class that told the NMCA owner that if I wasnt hit with weight, they would not be back. So unfortunately I am the sacrificial lamb for what is best for his series. I was called yesterday by the NMCA and told that they will "re-look" at my weight but I will always have to work harder since I have something different. Now in the sister series, the NMRA, in my cross over class, Hot Street, the 360 motor out ran the field by .04, shattered the record and won the championship. the combo isn't getting hit with one pound. Rumors have it that the engine in question was built by Rousch and they are a MAJOR sponsor.

[Jagtec1]

John, do you have any plans to run a different class/organization?

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"built by Rousch"

I think the spelling is Roush, guys.

You add weight to the Roush engine (Ford Guys typically) and naturally they will "Whine to the organization". They are good at it, they do it all the time in NASCAR.

Maybe NMCA's "relook" will be more in line with reality.

Tom V.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Now that sounds reasonable John. The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few. Star Trek: Mr. Spock.

But why only the tiger head and that amount? Because it may outflow the others in the Pontiac listing. Not right as they should base their conclusions on a comparision against other makes.

So they based a decision on the people that might not show, talking trash, Not on doing the extra work to make a car run the numbers.

[Ron H]

So you now have to run 3350 lbs?

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Quote:

"built by Rousch"

I think the spelling is Roush, guys.

You add weight to the Roush engine (Ford Guys typically) and naturally they will "Whine to the organization". They are good at it, they do it all the time in NASCAR.

Maybe NMCA's "relook" will be more in line with reality.

Tom V.

Same reason they let Roush have more then 4 teams, combine teams just under another group onwership name. When are they gonna clamp down on his antics?

Yes they need to re-look the factoring. An engine that hasn't been massed produced in over 25 years, NO corporate R & D !!!! very few companies supplying aftermarket parts other then Pontiac related vendors and the Pro Edelbrock organization cowering in fear of losing racers in an ever increasing environment.

GM, Ford & Mopar still developing R7 D plus a parts programs for current combinations.

Shame, once ya see the BIG picture.

[Tom Vaught]

Ken, the engine is DEAD. You will not see any R&D on the Oldsmobile engine from General Motors or the Overhead camshaft 6 cylinder engine either.

Ken, "Mr. Roush" just in the Dearborn area alone has over 50 buildings that he does prototype work out of for the Big Three.
Some buildings have over ONE HUNDRED heavy duty vehicle hoists in them. We are talking about a lot of money here. NASCAR and other racing organizations obviously is aware of that money just like they are with the thousands of BIG BLOCK Chebby parts sold vs a few Pontiac Tiger Heads and Intakes.

Tom V.

[John Langer]

Originally Posted by Ron H

So you now have to run 3350 lbs?

3400 lbs

[Ron H]

So you are not getting the 50 lbs for stock type suspension?

[Ron H]

Ken brought up a good point on the thread you started. I doubt there will be a real answer to it though.
Would a petition from us help?

[goquick]

Ron, That is a good idea. That is exactly what needs to hapen along with more racers showing up to race. But why bother if the organizing rules says the bbc gets a free ride? This also shows the serious need for heads up racing in the various Pontiac events.

Yeah I know, everyone wants to do their own thing and just bracket race which 85 percent of spectators don't understand or like. Look at the huge boost in parts r&d when the superchevy guys cameout with heads up racing and then the Ford Mustang racers did it too. Mopar guys didn't do it, we still haven't, and look where the non heads up racing is compared to those who did.

Heads up is more excitement (what was Pontiac's advertising a while back?) for everyone plus the parts R&D gets moving by more companies which leads to more and better parts to choose from. That would have been an easier to get what he needed combo for John when he went racing the real competition. Instead he has had to go the hard way alone. Have you guys seen the stuff that is able to be used by the competition? Alot more radical !!! BUT, they still get the general mess (gm) support for their parts.

[BruceWilkie]

If they wanted to be fair they would remove the head restriction and factor weight by BORE size displacement and weight. Kind of like IHRA PROMOD nitrous rules.
From the current IHRA rules: Ihra current rules: "CUBIC INCH LIMIT: Nitrous Oxide Entries – If 5-inch bore center combination is utilized then the cubic inch maximum is 820 cid OR if larger than 5-inch bore center combination is selected then the cubic inch maximum is 800 cid. 5.300 bore center maximum"
Even with nitrous the smaller bore gets up to 20 cubes more. HMMM...

Here is a formula shows effect of bore/stroke size Where B = bore, S = stroke, N = number of cylinders, and C = a constant for fuel quality, materials, stress levels, etc.:

HP ~ B^1.65 × S^.5 × N × C
Removing N, most power by far, is bigger bore + shorter stroke at same displacement.
(the ^ symbol between number and letter is for mathmatical power, like in formula pi multiplied by radius squared would be expressed Pi x R^2)

You can only fit so much valve till you hit the max for a given bore. Use that to factor hp per cube potential THEN adjust weight. No head restrictions. That would be fairest way but dont hold your breath on that one.