[72projectbird]

Replace the head gasket, change the oil a few times and run it.

I've had a couple engines push head gaskets and turn the oil into milkshakes. After replacing the gasket I'll run the engine up to operating temperature, and change the oil again while hot. Refill, gave everything a once over, and ran them. Years later after pulling the pan, everything looked fine.

No reason to overthink it.

[AG]

Originally Posted by 72projectbird

Replace the head gasket, change the oil a few times and run it.

I've had a couple engines push head gaskets and turn the oil into milkshakes. After replacing the gasket I'll run the engine up to operating temperature, and change the oil again while hot. Refill, gave everything a once over, and ran them. Years later after pulling the pan, everything looked fine.

No reason to overthink it.

Do this and if it doesn't work you are pulling the engine for a full diagnosis.

[Sirrotica]

Having worked for a few years in a Buick dealership, blown head gaskets were pretty commonplace. I have no idea why Buicks had so many head gasket problems with every V8, and V6 since the late 60s, but they surely did.

We did a bunch of them that were milkshakes in the oil pan, and they were sent down the road, and lived a long time. Granted these were daily drivers, and not hot rods. Yes, it does hurt bearings when coolant gets in the oil. I had a customers 72 455 Riviera that they ran a long time with coolant leaking into the oil that needed a crank kit, bearings, and new rings, but if it hasn't been driven too long you probably don't need to spend $5000 rebuilding the engine. Driven the small amount you say it was driven, and if you don't beat the snot out of it, I'd try the head gaskets first. Given the long periods the car has sat you could also have condensation in the oil, need to do a pressure test on the cooling system to confirm where the water is coming from, IMO.

I had a dirt track car that got water in the oil, and just changed the head gaskets, and ran it for 2 more seasons on the race track, then pulled the engine and put it in a street car. That car finally rusted so badly, they just quit driving it, the engine still ran perfectly. I'm not saying it doesn't take life off the engine, but many times it's not hurt so badly, that you need a complete overhaul. Do some detective work before putting head gaskets on, that may not be the trouble.

[77 TRASHCAN]

My Dad's first new car was a Pontiac Bonneville, model G. I believe a 1982. Looked like it was based off a Nova p l at form. It had the "big" 252 Buick V6 in it ( Quadrajet). It got 2 sets of head gaskets, under warranty.

YEAH, HEAD GASKETS, I REMEMBER!!!

Did Pontiac engined come with steel shim head gaskets, just wondering...possible corrosion issue?

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN

My Dad's first new car was a Pontiac Bonneville, model G. I believe a 1982. Looked like it was based off a Nova p l at form. It had the "big" 252 Buick V6 in it ( Quadrajet). It got 2 sets of head gaskets, under warranty.

YEAH, HEAD GASKETS, I REMEMBER!!!

Did Pontiac engined come with steel shim head gaskets, just wondering...possible corrosion issue?

Steel jacketed with a fiber core, was the OEM Pontiac gasket, I believe Mc Cord made them. I always bought my gaskets at the dealer, because it was cheaper to buy only the gaskets you needed as opposed to buying a head set that had a ton of parts you really didn't need. I saw very few Pontiacs with leaking head gaskets during 50 plus years of wrenching.

The 4.1 (252) had six head gasket revisions on it when I worked at the Buick dealer. So many warranty claim on that engine they dropped it, a very short run from 80-84. At some times a line mechanic would have one head gasket job on his flat stall, and one on the lift, at 5.1 hours flat rate you'd starve that week.

If you overheated a 350,or a 455 Buick, with say a stuck thermostat, you had a 50/50 chance the head gasket would blow. As they aged the fiber gaskets the factory used deteriorated, and usually blew at the front water passage from block to head on the right bank. That wasn't the only place they failed, but it was the most common place.

[dv657172]

I really appreciate all the comments, advice and encouragement. I will provide an update after some additional diagnosis work. It may be a while but I will come back.

Thanks again
DV

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by dv657172

I drive the car so little I had to go back to my own notes to remember that it smoked in 2018. It did smoke, same side, nothing in the oil or coolant back then...

Then on Sept 18th of this year car had white smoke when I started it, for 3-4 minutes then the smoke stopped (car stayed in garage). Oil looked fine, coolant fine...

Started it on the 23rd no smoke, ran fine at idle (stayed in garage)
Sept 25th started it - white smoke again for 10 min at idle, then it stopped, idled fine (kept it in garage). Coolant fine, checked oil and it was a milkshake.

Car has only went about 50 miles in the last 4 yrs...no lectures please, time and life goes by fast.

Originally Posted by dv657172

I will provide an update after some additional diagnosis work.

If you're not losing coolant, why do you think there's coolant contamination in the oil, instead of condensation from lack of proper warm-up over the course of years?

First Guess: the "smoke" is water vapor condensing in a cold exhaust system. "Smoke" goes away when the exhaust system warms-up. TOTALLY NORMAL. Happens every fall--forums have lots of posts about white smoke out the tailpipe in the morning.

First Guess: NOTHING WRONG with your vehicle that driving it more wouldn't fix; especially if you verify the PCV system is working properly. But that is predicated on you NOT talking about having to add coolant.

IF (big IF) you're having to add coolant, or the coolant level is dropping...that's a symptom of a "real" problem.

[dv657172]

Schurkey

I'm going with a "real" problem and not condensation (see pic)..

I needed a bigger boat

[zippy]

Originally Posted by dv657172

Thanks for your opinion. I am leaning that way too.

Is it possible to have a head gasket leak and only the oil be contaminated, never the coolant?

I also through a vacuum guage on it before I realized the oil was bad and had steady albeit low vacuum...used vacuum fitting that goes to distributor which is also shared with PB and one other thing

Yes it is. My 455 went once on me. No leak to coolant passages, but was leaking into crank case. Pretty much let go in a hurry. I checked oil before heading to car show that AM and Zero coolant in her. Was pulling a hill, opened the secondaries a little to pass a semi. Didn't even kick down to 2nd. About 4 seconds later, felt no power, like she went sluggish then BAM, A/F and oil all over the windshield. Turns out, the crank got filled with coolant. Overfull, then it busted out #7 ring lands from the bottom up! And blew out the valley pan. Bending sides to he!!. And then Hydrolocked #7 and busted piston off rod then rod cracked the cyl requiring sleeving. Upon dissasembly could see the coolant passage through Pass head gasket and where it let go letting coolant flow into valley.

[dv657172]

Ouch, I bet that left a mark...now I am afraid to drive any of my cars, lol.

[dv657172]

Finally got around to getting heads off. DS was side with white smoke. I will go with lack of use as the cause I guess while car did have a history of running hot before I had radiator recored in 2018.

Any comments or advice on next steps besides new gaskets and cleaning up coolant passages welcome, everything looked ok. Pics of both heads attached.


Any comments on pistons would be helpful in terms of impact they have on compression, if any, (i.e. increase/decrease vs. factory 8.20). Engine work done before my ownership, supposed to be TRW forged pistons

[dv657172]

Finally got around to getting heads off. DS was side with white smoke. I will go with lack of use as the cause I guess while car did have a history of running hot before I had radiator recored in 2018.

Any comments or advice on next steps besides new gaskets and cleaning up coolant passages welcome, everything looked ok. Pics of both heads attached.


Any comments on pistons would be helpful in terms of impact they have on compression, if any, (i.e. increase/decrease vs. factory 8.20). Engine work done before my ownership, supposed to be TRW forged pistons

[Schurkey]

1. Fresh exhaust manifold gaskets, anti-seize on the manifold-to-head bolts with corresponding reduction in torque on those bolts. Clean/polish/brush the rust off the studs on the manifold outlet, or replace studs. Assemble with brass or stainless-steel nuts on the outlet studs, perhaps with anti-seize and torque reduction.

2. Disassemble valves/retainers/keepers/springs/seals. Verify valve guide/valve stem wear. Fresh valve stem seals, verify spring condition, verify valve face/valve seat condition. "Valve job" as needed. "CC" at least a couple of combustion chambers on each head. Assure all cylinder-head gasket surfaces are clean, straight, smooth. Plane gasket surfaces as needed/desired. Driver's side #7 combustion chamber looks rusty, at minimum, verify that the head and block aren't cracked. Optional: Now is the time to do some port/bowl clean-up, install better valves/springs/hardened seats, etc. Better yet: Replace with new, QUALITY aftermarket cylinder heads. (Not Chinese junk.)

3. Inspect bores for wear--"ridge" at top, cylinder wall honing marks still visible, no cylinder scoring, etc.

4. Verify how far below the deck the pistons are at TDC, calculate compression ratio using verified combustion chamber CC and piston-below-deck measurements. With #1 piston at TDC, verify timing mark on damper vs. timing indicator. Optional: Assure camshaft is properly "degreed" and timing chain is in good condition. Optional: This is the time to replace the cam if you're so inclined.

5. Yank out (at least) a few lifters--keeping them in order--to verify cam lobes and lifter bottoms. Optional: Disassemble and clean each lifter one-at-a-time.

6. Straight-edge on block decks, verify flatness/smoothness of gasket surfaces. Optional: If you have to correct the gasket surfaces on the block, have the block zero-decked for optimal quench/squish. Straight-edge on intake manifold to verify flatness/smoothness of gasket surfaces. Optional: Saw-off water passage as desired.

7. If you haven't already (and you should have by now) pull the block drain plugs on both sides of the block. Drain all old coolant. Refill with new, clean coolant (generally 50/50 anti-freeze/water) after assembly. While the heads and exhaust manifold are off, and visibility is good, do a visual inspection of the core plugs--or just replace as many as you can get to. Flush/replace radiator and heater core (flush entire cooling system when the engine is reassembled, if desired.) Verify all hoses and belts. Now is the time to change thermostats, if desired. Consider installing a block heater.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

1. Fresh exhaust manifold gaskets, anti-seize on the manifold-to-head bolts with corresponding reduction in torque on those bolts. Clean/polish/brush the rust off the studs on the manifold outlet, or replace studs. Assemble with brass or stainless-steel nuts on the outlet studs, perhaps with anti-seize and torque reduction.

2. Disassemble valves/retainers/keepers/springs/seals. Verify valve guide/valve stem wear. Fresh valve stem seals, verify spring condition, verify valve face/valve seat condition. "Valve job" as needed. "CC" at least a couple of combustion chambers on each head. Assure all cylinder-head gasket surfaces are clean, straight, smooth. Plane gasket surfaces as needed/desired. Driver's side #7 combustion chamber looks rusty, at minimum, verify that the head and block aren't cracked. Optional: Now is the time to do some port/bowl clean-up, install better valves/springs/hardened seats, etc.

3. Inspect bores for wear--"ridge" at top, cylinder wall honing marks still visible, no cylinder scoring, etc.

4. Verify how far below the deck the pistons are at TDC, calculate compression ratio using verified combustion chamber CC and piston-below-deck measurements. With #1 or #6 piston at TDC, verify timing mark on damper vs. timing indicator. Optional: Assure camshaft is properly "degreed" and timing chain is in good condition. Optional: This is the time to replace the cam if you're so inclined. Yank out a few lifters--keeping them in order--to verify cam lobes and lifter bottoms. Optional: Disassemble and clean each lifter one-at-a-time.

5. Straight-edge on block decks, verify flatness/smoothness of gasket surfaces. Optional: If you have to correct the gasket surfaces on the block, have the block zero-decked for optimal quench/squish. Straight-edge on intake manifold to verify flatness/smoothness of gasket surfaces. Optional: Saw-off water passage as desired.

6. If you haven't already (and you should have by now) pull the block drain plugs on both sides of the block. Drain all old coolant. Refill with new, clean coolant (generally 50/50 anti-freeze/water) after assembly. While the heads and exhaust manifold are off, and visibility is good, do a visual inspection of the core plugs--or just replace as many as you can get to. Flush/replace radiator and heater core (flush entire cooling system when the engine is reassembled, if desired.)

X 2, I'd recommend the same actions at this point. You might as well do everything while it's apart, rather than put it back together and have to tear it back down again in the future. Of course economics will dictate what you are able to do, plus what you plan to do with the car in the future.

[dv657172]

Thanks Shurkey for the info. Sounds like you have done this a few times

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by dv657172

Thanks Shurkey for the info. Sounds like you have done this a few times

Done it...estimated it for customers...lived it myself.

I added a couple of things to my previous post. Take another look.

[dv657172]

Sirrotica

Yes there is a budget factor for the time being but the prior engine work about 15k miles ago by the previous owner included a complete valve job, porting the cylinder heads, gasket matching the intake and exhaust manifolds, square decking the block, etc. Granted the head gasket leak is concerning but the shop does have a very good reputation.

Actually my biggest concern is getting the correct torque on the bolts nearest the firewall on each side as its a tight fit due to steering shaft (DS) and A/C thing on PS.

Car has #96 heads which I would believe has hardened valve seats from the factory, correct?

Cam is a General Kinetics P1H272PK which based on the specs that I found on it awhile ago is basically a Summit #2801.

Car ran good and strong before so I will definitely being doing some of the list but dont want to get too involved as I hope to restore entire car within next 10 years and I have a race car that needs some attention before the spring

[Schurkey]

That significantly simplifies my listing.

I'm still suspicious of all the rust in #7. I have the impression that you've been getting coolant in that cylinder for a long time. Which makes me concerned about head/block cracking. Maybe you're "lucky" in that the only coolant entry to that cylinder is from the failed head gasket--but it looks like the head casting has been pitted with corrosion in that area. You'll still need to plane that head, and perhaps both to maintain even compression.

[25stevem]

Number 96 heads DO NOT have induction hardened seats.

[dv657172]

Good afternoon Steve

I would have thought they were given the 71 and later engines were built for unleaded fuel (i.e. lower compression)? please educate me on this