[SD421]

In the book, "Herding Goats" by Albert Drake he recalls a story by Dimitri Toth. Dimitri talks about a guy at Pontiac who had a 72' LeMans Station Wagon being built. This guy was going to build a standard 455 motor to have put in his car. He spent 3 weeks on his coffee breaks on the night shift selecting the parts by himself, painted the engine like 3 times.

To make a long story short, the motor did not mate up with his LeMans. He missed it by 3 cars!!!

It went into a 4 door Tempest!!!


Don

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by SD421

In the book, "Herding Goats" by Albert Drake he recalls a story by Dimitri Toth. Dimitri talks about a guy at Pontiac who had a 72' LeMans Station Wagon being built. This guy was going to build a standard 455 motor to have put in his car. He spent 3 weeks on his coffee breaks on the night shift selecting the parts by himself, painted the engine like 3 times.

To make a long story short, the motor did not mate up with his LeMans. He missed it by 3 cars!!!

It went into a 4 door Tempest!!!


Don

Dang. Hate it when that happens!

(lol)

Dimitri is a friend of the family, by the way.

K

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by ANDYA

OK, here's a question maybe Dr. Schiffer or Keith can answer. Several years ago I spoke with a gentleman who said he worked at the Pontiac factory back in the 60's. He told me that when some of the guys who worked at the factory would order GTO's they would know what day thier cars were being built. As the car was coming down the assembly line they could count back and figure out which engine was to be joined with their car later in the day. During break time or when a supervisor wasn't around they would switch the 389 for a 421 before the engine and car met downstream. The GTO got the 421 and somebody who ordered a big car with a 421 ended up with a 389. He said that this didn't happen often, but it was done. Any idea if this is true? In the past I've heard stories about poeple who purchased GTO's from original owners only to find 421's in the cars. The owners would swear they never changed engines and this is how the car came. Obviously there would never be any documentation of this.

Yes, this could and did happen. I'll give you a few instances. 1) We would have Buick assmebly plant employees that worked for my dad and grand father part time in our scrap yard. When either my dad or grand father ordered a new Buick these guys took the order number and followed the car down the line. The cars would end up with a little better fit and finish and a few more options then orginally ordered.
2) One of my pateints, Lee Rogers, while attending GMI (General Motors Institute of Tech) starting in 1966. He worked as the Assistant Line Manager on the Pontiac assembly line. He would build "Specials" for people. One of Lee's early ones was a "Special" for the Chief of the Pontiac Fire Dept. The Chief had complained that his 1966 Bonnie was taking too long to be built. Lee told him he'd handle it. The Chief looked at this 18 year old and said, "Ya right". But he gave Lee the order number. By the end of the week the Bonnie was ready for delivery with a few extras.
Lee told me about the dozen 1966 Tempest 421 he built for Daytona. He would get an order from Jim Wangers, Jack "Doc" Watson or John Delorean etc., for a car to be built within a few days for some one. He would walk across the street from the PMD plant a "Steal" a body from the Fisher Body plant. He re-tag the order for immediate assembly. Change the engine to be droped in if requested and any options added or removed etc. You may have been the unfortunate soul that car was going to be built for. Some time they forgot to re order your car. I'm sure you have heard about "Lost" orders.

Other "Special's" built were a 1969 GTO pearl paint with a white mink interior for Frank Sinatra to give to his girlfriend Mia Farrow.
Another with multi color paint for Don Gay Pontiac.
3) For himself he ordered 1967 Tempest OHC 6 and followed it down the line. Then sent it over to the engineering building were a few of his freinds upgraded the car to more then Sprint 6 spec's and a 3.90 Posi rear end.
4) The other way a wrong engine got into these cars is that corp. would want to test an assembled engine going down the line. They would actually pull one off the line slated for a car. Corp. wanted to check tolerances. Volumetric pressure etc. It may take a few cars and engines before the line would get reset with correct engine to chassie.
Mac McKellar told me about an incdent. Because of this Corp way of pulling these engines off the line and doing the Volumetic testing. PMD got caught in 1963 putting the 330 cid engine that PMD built for GMC into the Tempest and called it 326. ooops. At first Corp. thought they had a problem with a leak. Then after pulling a few more enignes off the line they realized what PMD was trying to get away with. Corp. told PMD to fix the problem for the following model year. They kind of did. They retooled a new motor that was really a 326. They pissed off Corp with another option called GTO with a 389.

There have been instances that a car was spotted by some one with influnance saw your car and liked it. Your car may not have gotten released for delievery. Hopping you would cancel the order. Then they would "tag" it.

This happened to a good friend of mine, Larry Cohen, on his white 1970 GTO Judge Ram Air IV automatic. He had to get his attorney to write a letter to PMD's General Manager to get the car released. Once he got it Brian Balish rebuilt the engine and he put in a Mark IV air conditioning unit.

As one automotive writer who is the son of a past GM V.P. has said, "PMD might as well have hoisted the Skull and Cross Bones and gone to war with GM Corp!" LOL

Unfortunately, the end was near for PMD when Corp. had PMD shut down their engine dynos and wind tunnels. Many of PMD's engine engineers moved to the Milford proving grounds where they had to ask Chevrolet for dyno time. Go figure Chevrolet rarely had any spare time to give to PMD. A glimmer was when Tom Goad spear headed a group to put in a 3.8 turbo into the '89 T/A. Tom's team re worked engine. Then Tom flew out to California to work with the plant mgr and an off sight vender to do a final assembly of the '89 Turbo T/A. According to Tom all of those Turbo T/A's went down the line together.

[ANDYA]

I recently spoke with a friend of mine who is a Mopar guy. He told me there are links to this thread on some of the Mopar forums. Ofcourse they deny that the Blackbird ever beat the Silver Bullit, but we know different.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by ANDYA

I recently spoke with a friend of mine who is a Mopar guy. He told me there are links to this thread on some of the Mopar forums. Ofcourse they deny that the Blackbird ever beat the Silver Bullit, but we know different.

I guess in their world the late Jimmy Addison was never beat. Whether he was running 11.89, (Car Craft January 1970) or "his wishing for 10.60's....with a goal of 10.40's" (Car Craft Septmeber 1971). LOL

Didn't the Royal Bobcats, Firebird 350 HO run that 11 second Et and several 1968 and 1969 Royal Bobcat GTO's run in the high 11's back then? ( ex: July 1969 Super Stock with the bogus Ram Air V, really a D-port motor 11. 86) Just to name one. Humm... Addison did those number two years later. John Politzer felt the 1968 GTO Ram Air II GTO was a lot stronger then the 1969 GTO Judge when he drove them.

I guess the PMD, Chevy and Ford guys never improved on their game. Only Addison and the Chrysler guys. LOL I'm sure we all seen the 1969 Nationals Super Stock finals with some "Rat Pack" green Camaro driven by Wally Booth hole shot and beat Ronnie Sox. Ooops Does that mean Sox and Martin didn't always win with their Hemi?Wasn't GM out of racing as of winter 1963 when Chrysler began winning?

I'm sure all of those nay sayers lived in Detroit and "where there". LOL

Back then Jim Wangers and the Royal guys would hit Woodward with a couple cars at the same time. If you beat one of the Royal cars Jim would throw a faster car at you.

In the 1970'- 1980's if you beat the '74 Red T/A then you went up against the Silver '77 T/A. If you beat he '77 T/A then Jim's all out '75 Monza went after you. The Monza was calculated as being an 8 Second car (probably just a low 9 second car). Then in the 1990's. If you beat the '87 Pontee Carlo (10second now a 8 second car). Jim would throw the Red '74 T/A, mid 9 second) at you. This was not to mention Jim's two slower 1987 Grand Nationals that ran mid 12 seconds.

As one of the original "High End" guys Joe Riggirello, with his Ford's built by Wayne Gapp and Jack Roush, would ask, "what's it going to take to beat you Wangers?". " More!" See Joe's Mustang II in earlier post with the Oct. 1976 Car and Driver article "Back to the Streets Mother" by Brock Yates.

Isn't Fantasy Bench Racing Fun?

[LUST01]

You ain't kidding that 1969 lime light GTO got a work out in the magazines in 1969. Here are three pages taken from the January 1969 Car & Driver road test that put 6 econo-racers from Detroit up against each other. All the cars tested had automatics and a rear axle ratio close to 3.50 except for the Cyclone that had a 3.91. The six cars tested were a Chevelle SS396 (325hp version), a Dodge Super Bee with a 383, a Ford Cobra Torino with a 428CJ, a Mercury Cyclone with the same mill but with the deeper gears, A Hemi Road Runner and our favoite 69 lime light GTO that is now wearing Judge colors. Based off the information you posted from the other magazine tests, the close ratio 4 speed and 3.91 gears were swapped out for an Turbo 400 and 3.55 rear gears for this road test. Car and Driver DNQ the Judge for several reasons: The engine identification numbers stamped on the block indicated a 1968 manual trans Ram Air engine. The engine ran cooler than 190 degrees (190 degree thromstats were standard to aid emission controls). They found a pluged vacuum hoses that contol ignition timing. The Judge wasn't happay on even the best Sunoco fuel and did not pass exhaust emission standards. Last but not least, the Judge was sporting 7" wheels and the stock 6" wheels. Car & Driver did not publish any of the times for the Judge but they did pubish the performance graph. Based off this graph, the Judge was pretty even, maybe a tic slower, than the first place Hemi Road Runner. The Hemi ran a 13.54 at 105.14 in the 1/4 mile. The other cars were right around the 14 second mark at 100 mph plus or minus a few hundreds. The SS396 was the slowest at 14.4 1/4 mile run. Car and Driver did allow the Judge to compete in driver control section where it tied for first with the Super Bee.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by LUST01

You ain't kidding that 1969 lime light GTO got a work out in the magazines in 1969. Here are three pages taken from the January 1969 Car & Driver road test that put 6 econo-racers from Detroit up against each other. All the cars tested had automatics and a rear axle ratio close to 3.50 except for the Cyclone that had a 3.91. The six cars tested were a Chevelle SS396 (325hp version), a Dodge Super Bee with a 383, a Ford Cobra Torino with a 428CJ, a Mercury Cyclone with the same mill but with the deeper gears, A Hemi Road Runner and our favoite 69 lime light GTO that is now wearing Judge colors. Based off the information you posted from the other magazine tests, the close ratio 4 speed and 3.91 gears were swapped out for an Turbo 400 and 3.55 rear gears for this road test. Car and Driver DNQ the Judge for several reasons: The engine identification numbers stamped on the block indicated a 1968 manual trans Ram Air engine. The engine ran cooler than 190 degrees (190 degree thromstats were standard to aid emission controls). They found a pluged vacuum hoses that contol ignition timing. The Judge wasn't happay on even the best Sunoco fuel and did not pass exhaust emission standards. Last but not least, the Judge was sporting 7" wheels and the stock 6" wheels. Car & Driver did not publish any of the times for the Judge but they did pubish the performance graph. Based off this graph, the Judge was pretty even, maybe a tic slower, than the first place Hemi Road Runner. The Hemi ran a 13.54 at 105.14 in the 1/4 mile. The other cars were right around the 14 second mark at 100 mph plus or minus a few hundreds. The SS396 was the slowest at 14.4 1/4 mile run. Car and Driver did allow the Judge to compete in driver control section where it tied for first with the Super Bee.

I'm glad you found the article. Car and Driver republished this article amoung their "best" in a book I mentioned earlier, "Car and Drive American Road Warriors Classic Muscle Cars" published by filipacchi Publishing in 2008.

Two other must have books are: "Muscle Car Confidential, Confessions of a Muscle Car Test Driver" by Joe Oldham. Along with the old tests Joe prints many pictures and his thoughts taken from his notes about each car test. You'll find many Pontiac tests including the '69 Lime Green GTO made into a Judge in its early white stripe and an automatic 400 Ram Air. Not as a Ram Air IV.

The other book is " "Motion, Tales of A Muscle Car Builder" by Martyn L. Shorr. Martyn talks about his experinace with one of the white and black vinyl top 1967 Royal Pontiac's GTO's. How he took it back to NY. I'm not going to spoil it. But he and Joel Rosen wish they could find that car again.

Happy hunting

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Nearing the end of Ace Wilson's Divsion called the Royal Racing Team they helped prepair a build up series of the "West Coast" Judge. This is the Judge that was used at the press preview at Riverside Raceway along side the new Trans Am.

This car is much different with fixed headlights and black interior. You'll have to follow the four article series to see Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac had very little to do with this car.
The name Royal Racing Team and Milt Schorneck will be note in the Phase III article. But this is when Royal Racing Team was now a part of Leader Automotiver. Leader employed Milt for a very short period of time. (weeks)

In Phase IV you will no longer see the name Ace Wilosn in the credits. You now see Leader Automotive and Milt will be separate. Milt, with the help of Jim Wangers and Brain Ballish opened Royal Automotive.

Jim Wangers helped move the new Pontiac prep'ing of the magazine test cars Milt's way. At the same time Jim had Brian build and maintain his street cars. ie Jim's '69 Judge, '69 GTO Brown Ram Air IV automatic Bobcat, '69 GTO Crystal Tourquoise Ram Air IV 4 speed Bobcat and the '68 Firebird "Black Bird".

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Popular Hot Rodding Phase II

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Now here is where people think Milt is the end all and be all. Nope, the Royal Racing was sold and transfer with all of it parts, cataloges and test car to Leader Automotive. Milt and Dave went to Leader for a short time as well. All of the others that had been part of the "Team" eventually left Ace Wilson's Royal Pontic for other jobs too.

You should have learned from all of the prior articles that Milt did not do all of the things this article is giving him creadit for...ie. Head porting and tuing the crank.

The article no longer call it Ace Wilson's because he doesn't house the "Team" any more. It is now just called Royal Racing Team in this article.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Final installment of the 1969 Judge takes the all the way into December 1969. New model time. I'm sure you noted in the past you would have been already reading about the new 1970 GTO. But, John Delorean and Jim Wangers were gone since April. The division and Pontiac's off site engineering known as Ace Wilson's Royal Racing Team no longer exisited. The Royal Racing team was now a division of Leader Automotive owned by Johyn Delorean's brother George and Clarence Walters.

Leader Automotive let Milt go before this "Phase IV" engine was completed. Leader built the engine then sent if off to the West Coast for the final installment.

Read the credits and you will also see two different head companies and no Credit to Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac.

Clarence Walters was a part of the 1962 Royal Race Car Team. On the real car in it's day his name was on the bottom as C. Walters. Unfortunately, by err Win Brown's name was put on the resently restored '62 and on the Ertl Diecast a few years ago. Clarence also helped Dick Jesse build his 1965 and 1966 race cars too.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Here what happen when Jim Wangers and Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac are no longer in volved with engineering and preparing the press fleet.

June 1970 Ram Air IV GTO. Very Sad. How can this be? First the 1970 GTO Ram Air 400 4 speed vs 1970 GTO 455 Atuomatic with mid to high 14 seconds. Now a 1970 GTO Ram Air IV 400 in mid 14 seconds.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Jim Wangers was not about to see his work in promoting PMD performance all these years go up in smoke.

Using his front man, Milt Shorneck's name. Putting it with the name Royal Automotive. Then using a great mechanic in Brian Ballish. With Jim Wangers using his PMD insiders and magazine contacts. I give you a well tuned 1970 GTO Ram Air IV GTO.

By the way that is Brian on the right side under the hood. Now we have a 13.1 at 107mph quarter mile. Yah! Where is Milt? Oh ya, he's supervising! LOL

Enjoy the reading

Then later in the year Jim Wangers, Milt Schroneck, Brain Ballish unleash John Politzer in the "Black Bird" run out of Royal Automotive. Faetured first in March 1971 "Popular Hot Rodding"

There is more behind the scenes then you really know! LOL

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Ok, so the factory expansion of have more high performance dealerships like Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac seemed to die with the promotion of John Delorean to Chevrolet. Then Jim Wangers leaving the ad agency to run Hurst Corp for a short stint before getting his own Chevrolet dealership in Wisconsin.

Like I said Jim Wangers was not going to see his work go down in flames. So. How about building a low dollar Pontiac with a big engine. Like we hadn't seen this movie before. But this time lets have a proto type built at Royal Automotive. May be there is a demand.

Brian Ballish dropped a new low compression 455 in a new 1971 Ventura Sprint automatic and 3.42 rear end. Took it to the track and turned a best of 13.98 at 101 with street tires, factory exhaust manifolds and no ram air.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

I guess it would help if I showed you the pre- Jim Wangers, Milt Schorneck's Royal Automotive and Brian Ballish getting involved with preping the new 1970 GTO Ram Air 4 speed vs 1970 GTO 455 automatic. First, do you think Jim Wangers would have ordered an air conditoned GTO to be tested?

Last page on next post.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Last page of 1970 GTO Ram Air vs 1970 GTO 455. After you read the full test you see the difference of a Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac prepared press car and one that is not.

[brut4s]

Happy New Year Dr. Schiffer! And again thanks for the history lesson and please keep it coming!
Does Brain Ballish still build engines? And will he or John Politzer chime in with some stories also?

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by brut4s

Happy New Year Dr. Schiffer! And again thanks for the history lesson and please keep it coming!
Does Brain Ballish still build engines? And will he or John Politzer chime in with some stories also?

Happy New Year to you too!

While i have given both Brian and John this Forum's link. They may have looked in but as you have seen they have not written anything.

I have sat John down in front of my computer at home to read some of the stuff. But, after 30 seconds he's done. He doesn't want to live the past or talk much about. He is still enjoying life with his hot rods. Currently he drives a red '47 Chevy convertible with all of the modern options. (I posted him and his car at the Dream Cruise this year) John is waitng for a future time to talk about all of the stuff they did. Almost like he's still keeping some secrets! LOL Which he is! LOL

As for Brain. Yes he is still building "Killer" engines at White's Racing and Marine on East 9 Mile Rd. in Warren, MI. When I told Brian the topic was Jimmy Addison's Siver Bullet vs the Black Bird. His coment was with a smile, "This should be interesting!"

There where so many people streeting racing back then that unless you knew about the "big boys" and the Thursday Night High End club the names, Gil Kohn, Jim Wangers, Jimmy Addison, John "Cheater" Politzer, Dickie Aarons, Wally "Rat Pack 1" Booth, Andy "Waps Rat" Manerreon or Steve Mair, Joe Riggerello, Art "the Dart Kosins, "Peanuts" Kosins, Super Bee Lee and the late Mistele Brothers, means nothing to you.

Most of the people in the Detroit area car hobby, much like the rest of the rest of you, do not know and never heard of these guys much less the people from Royal Pontiac and the PMD engneers who made it all happen. Too many to list that had a lot to do with the golden days of Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac from 1959 through 1969. So don't feel bad. It was fun.

So world and people who couldn't even find Woodward argue theories of who beat whom and why that could never happen... You just have to love it! LOL

[Greg Reid]

Boy, if you miss a couple of days on this thread, it takes a LONG time and a LOT of reading to catch up...lol
Can't resist reading every one of those articles though. Fascinating stuff to me.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Greg,
You should not stay away too long! LOL

There is a High End Club gathering (reunion) to celebrate Joe Riggirello's 80th birthday this week. Joe was featured with his Wayne Gapp - Jack Roush built Mustang II 460 + cid engine (later 505) in a 1976 "Car and Driver" article by Brock Yates about street racing and our Thursday night High End Club racing on I-696. (The article was posted earlier in this thread) For those in the area it will be this Thursday, Jan. 12, 8:30 PM - till 10:00 PM at the Bloomfield Twp., Big Boy on the east side of Telegraph Rd, south of Maple Rd.

This should be a great time. I notified Jim Wangers about it. I know that Gil Kohn, one of the original High Enders of the '50's, past owner of Detroit Dragway and several other national strips, is coming up from Florida for it. Win Brown, John "Cheater" Politzer, "Fast" Freddie Foreman and myself are all planing on attending the Thursday night reunion.

I'll try to remember to bring a camera.