[Giffels]

Originally Posted by steve25

This duel 2 Qt Ford filter set up and it’s overkill flow volume is what gave me good sleep at night after adding 1 3/8” front and rear sway bars and massively wider tires and poly Bushings.

That looks excellent! I remember seeing that style dual filter on the old Herb Adams grey ghost car at laguna seca.

Attached is the setup on my car and a photo of the car since this is a Pontiac forum after all.

[Skip Fix]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Yeah, I think they just went by the book. I have had a pan off the car and started dumping in qt by qt, and 6 in the sump looked right to me. I have had others talk to me about in practice, and adding a qt always seemed to work better.

I've side by side compared to a Milodon road race pan, which is 7 qt (6 + 1), and they look the same to me in sump depth etc. The GTO Milodon is an 8 qt pan. (7 + 1)

But that's my personal experience.

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Factory "full" on the dipstick and a Canton just cover the top baffle/tray. You can drill the tray and still use a factory dipstick. But mine is about 6+1 also.

[PontiacJim1959]

The Tomahawk windage tray appears to be like stock with a few more drain holes. I might open up the 4 holes that are inline at the bottom to 1" for faster draining of oil into the pan.

Next, I'd use a crank scraper. This will wipe any excess oil off the crank and act as an oil "dam" as the crank is spinning and whipping up the oil up from the pan.

Might even try a thinner oil. You did not say what oil you are using. I would use a conventional 15W-40, or even try a 10W-30 depending on your bearing clearances. Conventional oil provides more "oil cushion" than synthetics.

The Accusump is also a good addition just for insurance for the type of running you are doing.

[Giffels]

Originally Posted by PontiacJim1959

The Tomahawk windage tray appears to be like stock with a few more drain holes. I might open up the 4 holes that are inline at the bottom to 1" for faster draining of oil into the pan.

Next, I'd use a crank scraper. This will wipe any excess oil off the crank and act as an oil "dam" as the crank is spinning and whipping up the oil up from the pan.

Might even try a thinner oil. You did not say what oil you are using. I would use a conventional 15W-40, or even try a 10W-30 depending on your bearing clearances. Conventional oil provides more "oil cushion" than synthetics.

The Accusump is also a good addition just for insurance for the type of running you are doing.

15-40 VR1 is what I’m running in the car. I live near allot of circle tracks so this is readily available and high zinc content. Clearances are somewhat loose so I think the higher weight is a bit nicer since this cars only purpose is to beat up

[adynes]

The extra oil held in the wings of T-sump style pan might help keep your pickup covered while cornering. Canton 15-444. Nice looking car.

[Dragncar]

Might want to call Stan at Steffs. They built me a sweet 7 qt pan with the kickout and trap doors. Work of art.

[Tom Vaught]

The custom "Fabricated" Oil Pan I have is built with a smaller space in the area of the pick-up screen. (The trap doors are closer to the pick-up).

I was told that this design keeps more oil closer to the pick-up vs the poor oil pans design oil ability to run away from the pick-up but still be inside of the trap doors farther away in the sump.

When you make sharp turns, there is more oil available in the "wings" of the stock baffles pan to rush to the center of the oil pan and pickup. On a cruise the trap doors allow the oil to return to a even level throughout the pan above the pick-up as the trap doors do not seal perfectly. On a level road the oil level is basically horizontal to the ground.

I like the Winged/ higher oil volume pans for that quick ability to supply oil to the center of the pan, but a well designed trap door stock pan will do the same thing.
A poor design gives you a false sense of security. The oil pressure drop on turns is trying to tell you that the pan design has issues.

JMO Tom V.

[Giffels]

thanks for all the info guys, much appreciated.

I have a higher flowing filter on the way, going to do an oil change and stick the borescope up there and inspect the pickup as suggested on here. Then I can get an exact reading on the oil in the car.

If the issue persists I will be looking into a fabricated higher capacity pan or the accusump idea.

keep you posted once the filter comes in.

[chuckies76ta]

Wix Racing filters flow up to 30 gpm. https://www.wixfilters.com/Speciality/Racing.aspx?1
I have that same Canton pan and pickup on an IA2 and 2-455 blocks and the pickup sits very close to the pan as I can remember. I would say trying a high flow filter would be your best bet for starters.
Not saying this to be a smarty pants, but I'm sure you plumbed the remote oil filter housing properly with supply and return. and even at the engine block. Just saying

[Sirrotica]

If I read the posts correctly, I sincerely doubt that your problem is the oil filter, as it only shows on right hand turns as per your post.

Having run hundred of laps on dirt tracks, and autocross tracks with only Stratostreak Pontiac V8s, they do have a tendency to starve on right handed corners, left handed corners aren't usually a problem with just a factory baffled Pontiac pan. This is with a plain jane stock type filter for over 3 years on the same bearings in a large journal 428 engine. If your bypass valve isn't blocked, the filter isn't going to be a source of starving the bearings.

Of all the street and race engines that operate in the worst possible environment (dirt track), I've never blocked any of my by pass valves on any Pontiac engine.

The easy band aid is an accusump to cover when the pickup sucks air. IMO, a more permanent solution is going to be either build/improve the better pan yourself, or have one of the specialty manufacturers build you a better pan than your Canton.

The late Smokey Yunick did calculations, and to have no restriction and be able to block your oil by pass valve in a race engine running at high RPM it would take 4, 1 foot long oil filter canisters, so plan accordingly, or leave the by pass valve operative.......

[02Hawk]

Try tapping an oil drain back (10AN) in the rear part of the head and run an external line down to the pan....and an accusump like others have suggested

[Dragncar]

The center of the pickup should be 3" on center from the rear pan wall. 1/4"-3/8 off the bottom. 1/2" max, but not ideal.
Building a pickup with a slightly larger dia than stock right now.

[Giffels]

Just for sh*ts and giggles I found a Wix 51515R filter here locally and changed the oil. The inspection camera was too big to fit in the drain hole (of course) - was able to get a flashlight and some fancy iPhone angles and pickup seems to be totally fine and right about 1/2" off the pan.

Filter and lines hold exactly 1 Quart.

Started out with 6 in the sump and then worked up to 7 in the sump + 1 in the filter. Can still recreate the issue on right hand corners even on the street. Also did some heavy breaking in neutral holding it at a steady RPM and you can see it drop in that regard too. Does seem to be slightly better than it was before but if you hold steady 3,000 RPM and go right hand corner I can see it drop 10-20 PSI vs. Left hand it does not drop. (Was concerned maybe I was seeing the RPM drop which would obviously drop the oil pressure accordingly so was trying to hold RPM and load steady to test)

Guess the next step is putting a plan together for a larger sump pan as you guys have suggested and yanking the motor. The T sump canton pan won't clear my headers so may be looking at a custom route I would think.

Really kind of disappointed this pan is marketed as "Road Race" and I can get it to starve in my neighborhood on 200 tread wear tires

[Tom Vaught]

The issue with the Accusump devices is that the pressure drops off when the oil pan pick-up and the oil in the sump are not staying together and the the accusump tries to bring additional oil into the engine due to the lack of the lack of oil flow from the pump.

It works but having a properly designed oil pan and pick-up system to a better way to go.
Fix the problem where the problem is. Easy to say, sometimes had to do.

Tom V.

[Giffels]

Totally agree. It would help but regardless I would still be starving for oil. Going to reach out to Stefs and nitemare performance tomorrow and inquire about a better designed larger sump

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

The issue with the Accusump devices is that the pressure drops off when the oil pan pick-up and the oil in the sump are not staying together and the the accusump tries to bring additional oil into the engine due to the lack of the lack of oil flow from the pump.

It works but having a properly designed oil pan and pick-up system to a better way to go.
Fix the problem where the problem is. Easy to say, sometimes had to do.

Tom V.

[Steve C.]

What Is The Proper Clearance Needed Between The Oil Pickup And Oil Pan?

"You can calculate the clearance by measuring the internal pan depth and measuring the distance from the block's pan rails to pickup bottom. The difference between the two measurements will provide the pickup to pan clearance. Gaskets will add some additional clearance. Here are some recommended pickup to pan clearances: Ford Pans- 5/16-3/8 inch (.312-.375) Chevy Pans- 5/16-3/8 inch (.312-.375) All Others 5/16-3/8 inch (.312-.375). Deep sump pan pickups are submerged deeper into the oil are less sensitive to clearances. Deep sumps may have clearance up to a 1/2 inch."

Source: Canton Racing Products

Curious, any drop in pressure going straight ? Moving along in say second gear with the RPM steady then stab the throttle can you see the oil pressure drop about 20 or so pounds for an instant, then quickly recover ?


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[Tom Vaught]

Unless someone put a "deflecter" Shelf on the back wall of the pan, at high speeds the oil will climb the back wall with hard accelerations or hard side to side movements.

The deflector needs to be welded to the rear surface of the oil pan about 3.5" from the bottom of the pan. It needs to go across the width of the rear of the pan.

A 1/2" strip the width of the rear of the pan is all you need to attach it to the oil pan.
the deflector needs to be a 1 inch identical strip for width but the strip is bent at a 45 degree angle downward and
the bent piece faces the front of the oil sump..

Tom V.

[Steve C.]

Not here to suggest this is a issue with the OP and his right hand turns topic. Information for interest, and a topic we had in another thread regarding a drop in pressure with acceleration.
And it involved a Canton oil pick up, and it's potential design issue.

Related to a statement made about oil pressure, "when you stab the throttle from say 3000 RPM up to a instant 6500 RPM it has trouble keeping up for a split second."

I encountered the same or similar situation. Moving along in say second gear with the RPM steady then stab the throttle you could watch the oil pressure drop about 20 or so pounds for an instant, then quickly recover. We first discovered it when we we installed my fuel injection system and noticed it happening on the data logger printout information for the oil pressure. Sounds silly but before that I had never noticed it since I was always looking forward, not at the gauge, as the car lurched forward like a rocket ship..

When I talked with Mark Luhn he said it was not all that unusual. He has seen it on his oil pump dyno. I now run his custom oil pump and it no longer does it. His custom oil pump has a taller gear set and larger diameter pickup that results in 87 percent more flow per revolution than a regular Melling oil pump.


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[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

When I talked with Mark Luhn he said it was not all that unusual. He has seen it on his oil pump dyno. I now run his custom oil pump and it no longer does it. His custom oil pump has a taller gear set and larger diameter pickup that results in 87 percent more flow per revolution than a regular Melling oil pump.
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His oil pumps are works of art and CNC machining.

1) His Oil Pick-up design is unique and at the same time has a lot more flow capability when combined with his upgrades on the Oil Pump itself (as Steve Mentioned).

2) The Billet Oil Pick-up design will work with any depth oil pan once he has the actual pan sump depth dimensions from the oil pan flange, gasket used (vs RTV), and the engine block.

A work of art. If you look closely at the oil pump pick-up, there is a oil pump screen trapped inside (between the pick-up bottom plate and the main portion of the unique pick-up design).

Tom Vaught

[Steve C.]

Agree. After I switched to his oil pump my issue stopped.

My Luhn pump is this design:
http://www.luhnperformance.com/image...ump_03_200.png

I might note his pick up design as I pictured was a modified unit from a late model Mustang Cobra, it's no longer available so he now makes his own design as Tom posted.


I use a Canton 15-450 pan that was custom modified by canton with a deeper sump to increase the capacity, also the previous Canton oil pick up was properly adjusted for the increased depth.

Same oil pan now, same baffles, same trap doors... now with the Luhn pump and it's stable oil pressure no matter how hard you hit it !

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