[dci]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

I do think for the Pontiac hobby to continue, we will need a block like this to keep users from putting LS motors as a replacement. The 400ci blocks are getting much more harder to find, 455ci and 428ci even more so. Each passing year, the number is reduced.

It must be a very close visual reproduction to the factory block, the current offerings don't look close enough to be used in a high end restoration.

I would make the block in just one flavor, any modifications and you are on your own.

3" mains w/ 4 bolt dowel pinned straight iron caps & bolts (Milodon Style).
4.145" bore as delivered, 4.250" max bore.
Standard cam tunnel with bracing like SD / RAV.
Deck Height 10.230"
Accepts OEM style oil pan, timing cover, valley pan.
Using the factory block as a pattern would keep the weight down.

Target Street price of $2,195.00.

NHRA approval would be huge benefit as we are seeing more and more Pontiacs in Stock and Super Stock.

I think a company like Dart could pull this off very effectively, but they would
be sold through Jegs and Summit hurting sales for KRE and AP.

The cost to produce may not be much less vs the current offerings, but the market would be much wider as I've seen 400WS blocks sold for as much as $1,000 and they need to be completely cleaned, magged and machined.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

I like the way your thinking Calvin except one thing. The $2195.00 price tag $2395.00 maybe. I have been kicking this idea around for a little over 2 years now, but every time I start to make a move forward on it. I start to think about how many blocks it will take to just make back the initial investment whether lone a profit. I can tell you first hand that out of all the people that say they will buy a block. Only one third of them will actually do it. This is no small investment in money or time to make happen, and our little community just cannot support the investment. I don't think it is because they don't want to. I think that the average guy has to rationalize that there are other things way more important to him besides his car. On the other side of the coin though, as we all get past raising our family's and getting our homes paid for. There comes a time in our lives that money is more expendable allowing us to have our toy's. Maybe our demographics are just not there yet. How old do you think the average guy is right now in this time that has an interest in traditional Pontiac's? Maybe we already passed it up?????

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by John Langer

Until someone calls up dart or world and prepays for say 1000 blocks, all design work, tooling fixtures, etc, you wont see a quality economical replacement block. If said person was lucky, he would be able to sell all of the blocks at maybe $100 profit per block in maybe 30 years...

I agree. This whole deal is hog wash.

Invest a $1,000,000 to earn $100,000 over 30 years. And get kicked in the nuts the whole time because they break when abused in high hp race cars...... I can just see it unfold

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by mike leech

I agree. This whole deal is hog wash.

Invest a $1,000,000 to earn $100,000 over 30 years. And get kicked in the nuts the whole time because they break when abused in high hp race cars...... I can just see it unfold

Sad but true. People try to go the cheapest route and go much further than the equipment can handle.

[Nicks67GTO]

Originally Posted by AG

No one needs anything but a stock block for 400 Hp. It will be awhile before all the stock blocks are gone.

No I don't think that's the case. I have 2 400 blocks laying around. My #s matching block and an uncut 67 400 I'm likely to use for my stroker build. I've been on the lookout for them for a few months around here and there's nothing readily available that I've found. I've seen pro Pontiac builders advertising for them and willing to pay 300/block for 8 at a time and drive 8 hrs to come get them. That tells me we might be shorter on them than we think.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by mike leech

I agree. This whole deal is hog wash.

Invest a $1,000,000 to earn $100,000 over 30 years. And get kicked in the nuts the whole time because they break when abused in high hp race cars...... I can just see it unfold

I couldn't agree more!! You hit the nail right on the head. Why would All Pontiac or even KRE want to take on a project like this? Put in all the investment to make an inferior product for the purpose of stealing sales from a quality product they already make? If it is a restoration, there will be enough blocks for the next 50 years to start the car, back it off the trailer and putt it to the show field. If it is a lower HP race engine or a quick street car, there are IA1's and II's available used and stock blocks that can still be had although they will cost more each year, I admit that. A vendor would have to be guaranteed thousands of blocks would be sold to get into this venture.
Then of course you would have a bunch of guys trying to make 1500 HP with them and breaking them to pieces and complaining they aren't strong enough. I don't see any up side to this project. A current IAII retail is about double the cost of the "entry level" Dart SBC. That seems to be about in line with all the other aftermarket niche blocks. I can tell you the aftermarket Ford FE blocks are a couple hundred bucks more than an IA II, are very hard to get with a long lead time, and are junk when you finally get one. An IA II looks like a piece of art in comparison.

[Nicks67GTO]

Where's Anderson Port Development at? Wasn't he talking about developing a block a few days ago?

[ho428]

Out in the garage looking at one of my other cars.
Will this Alternator and power steering bracket even fit an IA block? Doesn't look like it.
And then I have this, a sleeved 350 and busted 400. Just nothing around this area at all at the moment.
Closest 400 block I've found is a couple hours away, untanked, unchecked, as is, $450 cash. No thanks.

[65nss4spdGTO]

We've stock piled factory blocks over the past twenty years. My phone would ring often with people who had blocks for sale. Most of the time we bought them. The calls I get today are people looking for blocks as they are much harder to find. I'm actually at a point where I nolonger sell blocks unless it's a rare or much needed to complete a high quality restoration.

All this talk on a lower quality castings, that's not what the market needs. I've seen a reduction in casting quality with one of the aftermarket blocks in use today.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[Money Pit]

I like my MR1 and go to sleep at night. Thank you

[Nicks67GTO]

All of this talk has me wondering if I shouldn't just bite the bullet, LS swap now and get it over with. It sounds like something thats probably going to have to happen 10 years from now anyhow. I can buy a complete brand new LS3 525 with a gmpp warranty for 7500 bucks....or eventually spend 5K+ on just a race block for a 600hp build that will have very little support since 90% will have LS swapped at that point. That's a no brainer for me and my limited budget. I really want to keep the car Pontiac powered but when I have well known builders in here telling me the supply is drying up and there's 0 chance of a replacement coming... its got me questioning things.

[T Syron]

I would Send my car to the crusher before I would put a POS LS engine in it.

[tom s]

Nick,sell your car to someone that will keep it a pontiac and maybe buy a chevelle?Tom

[Nicks67GTO]

Originally Posted by tom s

Nick,sell your car to someone that will keep it a pontiac and maybe buy a chevelle?Tom

Not a chance. I've had it for 22 years. I'm 34.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Nicks67GTO

All of this talk has me wondering if I shouldn't just bite the bullet, LS swap now and get it over with. It sounds like something thats probably going to have to happen 10 years from now anyhow. I can buy a complete brand new LS3 525 with a gmpp warranty for 7500 bucks....or eventually spend 5K+ on just a race block for a 600hp build that will have very little support since 90% will have LS swapped at that point. That's a no brainer for me and my limited budget. I really want to keep the car Pontiac powered but when I have well known builders in here telling me the supply is drying up and there's 0 chance of a replacement coming... its got me questioning things.

You planning on blowing up your current block? At 600hp you should get yrs and yrs of service! I have 4 400 blocks and can't imagine using more than 2 blocks the rest of my life.

[Nicks67GTO]

Originally Posted by slowbird

You planning on blowing up your current block? At 600hp you should get yrs and yrs of service! I have 4 400 blocks and can't imagine using more than 2 blocks the rest of my life.

Plan on it? No. The 455 is getting sold to build a stroker...at least that's the plan right now. But whatever is in there is going to get driven on the street a lot, ran hard on autoX tracks and road courses. Things happen.

[Anderson Port Development]

Originally Posted by Nicks67GTO

Where's Anderson Port Development at? Wasn't he talking about developing a block a few days ago?

... well, for starters I do know where a 475c.i. short block will be for sale very soon, and it's a 455 block with billet caps on the front 4, lifter bore brace, full machine worked and ready with fresh cylinder honing, and he'll sell the block only for $1000.00 !!!!! ...

... just PM me and i'll forward your info to him ...


... now the aftermarket block thing, while i'm not looking to get in a debate, but it doesn't cost a million dollars to make a block, i'd suggest trying to put together a real list of preorders and then maybe interest may follow a project like that, but it really is a lot of work for sure ...

[PontiacMatt72]

I wonder if Ames would be interested in a share of the upfront investment for a stake in the profits... aren't they the single biggest Pontiac aftermarket parts supplier? They already have established advertising. A joint effort between them and another 1 or 2 investors (i.e. Butler, SD Performance, or any other willing/interested parties) might all could benefit to some extent?

I don't disagree about it likely not being astronomically profitable. But I don't see why it couldn't be doable.

As for those pushing the limits and beyond and ending up with a grenaded or windowed block, that's on them. A simple statement of the limits of the block places the owness on the buyer/builder. Is that not how it works when it happens with a destroyed engine after the build was not well thought out and executed?

[gene simmons]

Originally Posted by Nicks67GTO

I really want to keep the car Pontiac powered but when I have well known builders in here telling me the supply is drying up and there's 0 chance of a replacement coming... its got me questioning things.

There is a guy not far from you that should still have a few 68-71 400's,standard bores.

[gene simmons]

Originally Posted by Nicks67GTO

Plan on it? No. The 455 is getting sold to build a stroker...at least that's the plan right now. But whatever is in there is going to get driven on the street a lot, ran hard on autoX tracks and road courses. Things happen.

Why not just rebuild the 455? You bought it cheap enough and beat the hell out of it. Lol
Find some other spare 400 blocks for a back up.

[gene simmons]

Originally Posted by Nicks67GTO

I've seen pro Pontiac builders advertising for them and willing to pay 300/block for 8 at a time and drive 8 hrs to come get them. That tells me we might be shorter on them than we think.

Wish i would have known that,i sold 17 68-72 400s,all standard bores,not rusted or pitted,a couple years ago.
Somehow i doubt the pontiac builder would have given me $300 each for them,you are talking about 8 for $300 right?