[lust4speed]

Originally Posted by zippy

... I am running a gear drive with no extra keyways. Kinda sux but I like the noise...

Our Milondon gear drive has multiple advance settings by rotating the main gear on its hub. You should be able to get very close to your number -- or do you have another brand?

[zippy]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

Our Milondon gear drive has multiple advance settings by rotating the main gear on its hub. You should be able to get very close to your number -- or do you have another brand?

Cat brand. Had for like 17 years now. Lol.

[67Fbird]

Originally Posted by zippy

I am degreeing this exact cam in my 455 right now. Melling CP 8 Trying to get to Cliff's 109. It has 113.5 out of the box, straight up. Well MINE does. Doesn't mean yours will. 112 is spec, So it's close. I made a key, Closest I can get with the key blanks I have here is 103. I am running a gear drive with no extra keyways. Kinda sux but I like the noise. Not sure how much I'll notice those 4 other degrees. 470cid, 10.6:1 comp, crower cam saver lifters. I Have run Rhoads lots in past, but I prefer the lope. When it's hot and the oil thins, and the idle goes silky smooth, Yuck LOL

I see the CAT drive is like a Pete Jackson, dual idler single key, unlike my MILIDON drive that uses 7 bolts on a separate cam hub. IIRC gives about 1 1/2* movement per bolt hole swap. I just went thru this building my 455 back at Christmas with my boys. IIRC i could not get the 108 CL for my cam dead on but ended up at 109.

[zippy]

Oh man...... THIS is why you don't put in long days into nights doing important things.... like blueprinting. Last night, I kept filing keys,, swapping, measuring and measuring. Then I made my last post, after 4 beers I think in the shop. Ya, I was at 113, now at 103ICL. I kept looking at just the last digit I was writing down. Ya a 3, I need to get to 9. So need 4 more degrees..... Would be 99!!!

Good thing I come back here this AM, having my coffee and read that and was like really Dan? Your a genius sometimes. But you can be pretty blind... Gona take a break from blueprinting today and go fly a plane or 2.

[zippy]

For giggles. Here's my block, next to one of my planes. Stupid phone tils sideways when uploading here it seems

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Mikes Reply:
I forgot about this Thread and then it came up on my computer. My Vehicle has been down for almost a year now due to the fact that I damaged the Transmission going over a hidden root under a friend's driveway. I purchased a Torque converter but that was not the only problem. Since I drove the vehicle in this damaged condition, I only made it worse in diagnosing the problem. I have Internal problems in this TH 400 . I have been slowly purchasing the rebuild kit and tools necessary to rebuild it myself. My roommate is helping and we are watching all kinds of rebuild videos and reading the Articles on TH 400. I made the last order for tools to do the correct job, one is a dial indicator. I will be able to use it to check my Intake center line once I purchase a degree wheel for checking the Cam I/C. Soon I will be rebuilding the TH 400 and I will Put the photos on a thread I started called "To build or not to build". One thing I have to add is since I installed the 041 Cam, I don't ever remember the passing gear or kickdown coming on, that could be why the performance was lacking, we realized this when we were diagnosing the Trans. We rebuilt the Detent solenoid and it is working but not yet tested in the car. I won't see the results until I rebuild the Trans. and the vehicle is moving. I am at a theoretical 109 degrees advanced in the Cam but I want to be sure. The car runs well with this setting but since the broken TH 400 limits testing on the road, I will have to be patient. It would be nice to see the kickdown system working again.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 67Fbird

I see the CAT drive is like a Pete Jackson, dual idler single key, unlike my MILIDON drive that uses 7 bolts on a separate cam hub. IIRC gives about 1 1/2* movement per bolt hole swap. I just went through this building, my 455 back at Christmas with my boys. IIRC I could not get the 108 CL for my cam dead on but ended up at 109.

Mikes Reply:

109 is perfect for High Performance, according to what I've been reading!

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Here is Mikes car:

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Here is Mikes car:

Mike here to revisit this post, see: TH 400 Pontiac Transmission Build or not to Build Myself? In this other post of mine I am linking it to this one for an update on my progress, it turns out that my passing gear kick-down switch was inoperable, thus there is no need to change my Cam back to the original one after all. I admit I have more to learn and that is how I discovered that the reason my vehicle ran like a raped ape and then stopped is because the wire to the high-end passing detent downshift was cut.

My 428 ci HO Tri-power engine in my 1979 Pontiac T/A used to go from 70 mph and step down hard on the accelerator and the detent solenoid would engage at 70 percent opened throttle and then the secondaries would open and dump the fuel at about 90 percent open throttle. This amounted to say 70 mph the vehicle took off into second gear and when I hit 90 mph the secondaries opened up and threw me back into the seat and went to 120 mph very fast. Then it dropped off and increased slowly from 120 mph to 130 mph max. My tires were not speed rated for those types of speeds and over the years playing around in the high-speed range, the tires were fatigued and were ruined, so that in four years, I had to replace one tire at a time about one per year. I am now aware that tires have speed ratings and a letter associated with those speeds, one can look up their specs online.

I don't spend any time up in that high-speed range anymore because I now know the limits are 130 mph opened up. Originally, I thought that when the vehicle did not perform as it used to that I had changed to a different cam in between and that might be the reason, but I was wrong. Too bad no one on the forum picked up on this and told me that the detent solenoid was the culprit. I did not figure it out until I took the trans. apart and we disassembled the detent solenoid and noticed the split wire., plus the switch in line with the linkage needed modification as well.

We installed an LED light bulb in series, so that when we adjust the switch, we can reliably see when the actual switch was in the opened position, this led to a more accurate adjustment and proof we were getting power to the switch, at all times. So, update this post, I don't need to change my Cam from the 041 that is in the 428 ci Pontiac engine back to a #588 type of cam which is like the 067-068 Tri-power cams. It turns out that the 041 cam is a good and recommended cam for a 428-455 ci blocks, I do not need the Roads variable lifters in my case either since I don't race my vehicle. I advanced the adjustable timing to race performance as well, if you read this entire post, if not please do so, there is allot of good information from forum members.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Mike here to revisit this post, see: TH 400 Pontiac Transmission Build or not to Build Myself? In this other post of mine I am linking it to this one for an update on my progress, it turns out that my passing gear kick-down switch was inoperable, thus there is no need to change my Cam back to the original one after all. I admit I have more to learn and that is how I discovered that the reason my vehicle ran like a raped ape and then stopped is because the wire to the high-end passing detent downshift was cut.

My 428 ci HO Tri-power engine in my 1979 Pontiac T/A used to go from 70 mph and step down hard on the accelerator and the detent solenoid would engage at 70 percent opened throttle and then the secondaries would open and dump the fuel at about 90 percent open throttle. This amounted to say 70 mph the vehicle took off into second gear and when I hit 90 mph the secondaries opened up and threw me back into the seat and went to 120 mph very fast. Then it dropped off and increased slowly from 120 mph to 130 mph max. My tires were not speed rated for those types of speeds and over the years playing around in the high-speed range, the tires were fatigued and were ruined, so that in four years, I had to replace one tire at a time about one per year. I am now aware that tires have speed ratings and a letter associated with those speeds, one can look up their specs online.

I don't spend any time up in that high-speed range anymore because I now know the limits are 130 mph opened up. Originally, I thought that when the vehicle did not perform as it used to that I had changed to a different cam in between and that might be the reason, but I was wrong. Too bad no one on the forum picked up on this and told me that the detent solenoid was the culprit. I did not figure it out until I took the trans. apart and we disassembled the detent solenoid and noticed the split wire., plus the switch in line with the linkage needed modification as well.

We installed an LED light bulb in series, so that when we adjust the switch, we can reliably see when the actual switch was in the opened position, this led to a more accurate adjustment and proof we were getting power to the switch, at all times. So, update this post, I don't need to change my Cam from the 041 that is in the 428 ci Pontiac engine back to a #588 type of cam which is like the 067-068 Tri-power cams. It turns out that the 041 cam is a good and recommended cam for a 428-455 ci blocks, I do not need the Roads variable lifters in my case either since I don't race my vehicle. I advanced the adjustable timing to race performance as well, if you read this entire post, if not please do so, there is allot of good information from forum members.

Hope that "no one" does not apply to people like me, lol, that do not run Auto Transmissions and never have in a Pontiac GTO/Firebird.

Tom V.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Here is Mikes car:

I have successfully rebuilt my TH 400 and am happy with the results. Now back to the 041 cam I installed prior to the Trans. build that took 2 years of study and purchasing the parts. I am now taking the front end apart to get to the advanced Cam gear we installed without degreeing the engine Block. As we test and tune the vehicle, I am hearing noises that should not be in this motor. Thus, I am not running it until I inspect the push rods to see if I bent one or not by advancing the cam timing by 6 degrees at the crank or 3 degrees at the cam, pretty sure those are the numbers without reading through the entire post. The point is with the Trans. problems occurring soon after the cam installation I neglected to degree the motor. I have not done this procedure in my life; I will update the progress. I was told to do this by forum members and I thank those who insisted I do this first.

[Cliff R]

A couple of observations.

You don't need an operable downshift solenoid in the TH400 with a well thought out Pontiac build. Matter of fact I unhook them on my vehicles. Instead I use my right hand to select lower gears if/as needed plus full control of the upshift points as well. Using the solenoid would for sure destroy the car or get me killed or seriously injured anyhow. If I were cruising along at 30 mph or so and went to full throttle the engine would try to rip the tires right off the rims if it shifted to low gear and I'd likely loose control of it and end up wrapped around a telephone pole.

I'd also add here the using Rhoads lifters on a RAIV cam has absolutely NOTHING to do with racing the car, or not. They are used to help offset the 80 something degrees of overlap and improve idle quality, vacuum production at idle speed, and improved throttle response and engine power right off idle and low RPM's. They work as advertised and take these somewhat "antiquated" engine designs and give them variable valve timing like modern engines. The downside is that they make noise doing it, which some folks can tolerate and others simply can not.

Advancing the cam has really nothing to do with engine noise unlessy you went so far the valves are smacking the pistons. In that event it would have bent them and you'd be walking anyhow. I've found that the RAIV cam likes to be at 109-110 ICL in a 455 build with moderate compression. Never used one in a 428 but I still wouldn't advance it very far, maybe 108-109ICL and run with it..........FWIW.....

[P@blo]

The Rhoads lifters are for improved low- speed manners in automatics not for racing Mike. They let you run the 041 with improved off idle throttle response and vacuum.

This is where you will probably explain that you still do not need them but your application is right up the VD lifter alley. Get your hands on Jim Hand's book its hands down the best book out there

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

A couple of observations.

You don't need an operable downshift solenoid in the TH400 with a well thought out Pontiac build. As a matter of fact, I unhook them in my vehicles. Instead, I use my right hand to select lower gears if/as needed plus full control of the upshift points as well. Using the solenoid would for sure destroy the car or get me killed or seriously injured anyhow. If I were cruising along at 30 mph or so and went to full throttle the engine would try to rip the tires right off the rims if it shifted to low gear and I'd likely lose control of it and end up wrapped around a telephone pole.

I'd also add here the using Rhoads lifters on a RAIV cam has absolutely NOTHING to do with racing the car or not. They are used to help offset the 80 something degrees of overlap and improve idle quality, vacuum production at idle speed and for improved throttle response and engine power right off idle and low RPM's. They work as advertised and take these somewhat "antiquated" engine designs to give them variable valve timing, like modern engines. The downside is that they make noise while doing it, which some folks can tolerate and others simply cannot.

Advancing the cam has really nothing to do with engine noise unless you went so far, the valves are smacking the pistons. In that event it would have bent them and you'd be walking anyhow. I've found that the RAIV cam likes to be at 109-110 ICL in a 455 build with moderate compression. Never used one in a 428 but I still wouldn't advance it very far, maybe 108-109ICL and run with it..........FWIW.....

" I'd also add here the using Rhoads lifters on a RAIV cam has absolutely NOTHING to do with racing the car, or not. They are used to help offset the 80 something degrees of overlap and improve idle quality, vacuum production at idle speed, and improved throttle response and engine power right off idle and low RPM's. They work as advertised and take these somewhat "antiquated" engine designs and give them variable valve timing like modern engines. The downside is that they make noise doing it, which some folks can tolerate and others simply cannot".

What you said in the above quote concerns me at this time. I have successfully completed a rebuild on my 1967 TH 400 Trans. and after testing and tuning I replaced the vacuum Modulator and procured a rebuilt Valve body and we ran into a different issue. The car has been off the road for the past 2 years dealing with the Trans, so I went through the Tri-power Carbs. because they too have been sitting.

Prier too rebuilding the Trans. we installed the "041" Cam and then we advanced it 6 degrees at the Crank and so 3 degrees at the Cam, without ever degreeing the Motor. Currently as we test and tune seem to have a vibration that did not exist - ever. We took a hose and listened with our ears all around the Engine to isolate where the vibration/noise was coming from, and came up with some theories. First, we looked at the Torque converter to Fly wheel and the bolts were tight. Then we checked the Drive shaft and found no problem there. Then I remembered we had advanced the Cam timing and are currently reversing that procedure installing the Cam with zero advance. I plan on purchasing a degreeing wheel kit. We just removed the intake Manifold to inspect the pushrods and Lifters, then we spun each Pushrod when the Cam lobe circle was on top to check the Valve lash on these Johnson almost new Lifters. The almost new Chrome Moly HD Pushrods to Rocker Arm to top of Valves looks well and to spec. and no Metal is on top of the Vally area. The only thing wrong is the crossover exhaust in the Heads are missing 25% material and need to be replaced. We spun the Motor using our push button to starter tool and no noise or ad-moralities noted. While I order the Gaskets, I will need to reassemble this HO 428 ci Pontiac Motor, I will pull the Oil pan to inspect the inner pan for Metal and plan to cut open the remote Oil filter looking for metal too. Perhaps the noise/ Vibration went away by zeroing the Cam chain Gears? I won't know until I run the Motor so, I best check all while I am this deep into this Engine. Once I inspect the lower half of the Block, then we will spin the motor once again.

If anybody (friend or foe) has any input here, please advise me.

P.S. I am so tempted to remove these Heads, ones that I have never removed since owning this project vehicle.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

You said: "You don't need an operable downshift solenoid in the TH400 with a well thought out Pontiac build. As a matter of fact, I unhook them in my vehicles. Instead, I use my right hand to select lower gears if/as needed plus full control of the upshift points as well. Using the solenoid would for sure destroy the car or get me killed or seriously injured anyhow. If I were cruising along at 30 mph or so and went to full throttle the engine would try to rip the tires right off the rims if it shifted to low gear and I'd likely lose control of it and end up wrapped around a telephone pole."

I have a Gear Vendors Over Underdrive in mine for the racer in me that came in this second-hand project. I don't have Manual Valve body in the TH 400 Trans. either. I do have plenty of extra weight in the trunk so I don't end up in the wrong lane in the rain.

You said: I'd also add here the use of Rhoads lifters on a RAIV cam has absolutely NOTHING to do with racing the car or not. They are used to help offset the 80 something degrees of overlap and improve idle quality, vacuum production at idle speed and for improved throttle response and engine power right off idle and low RPM's. They work as advertised and take these somewhat "antiquated" engine designs to give them variable valve timing, like modern engines. The downside is that they make noise while doing it, which some folks can tolerate and others simply cannot.

I could use: " Improved throttle response and engine power right off idle and low RPM's"

However, since I have never listened to the Variable Valve lifters, I am leery of any noise they make. The question is: since I am not racing this vehicle will the throttle response be noticeable on the road? When I take off from a dead stop with these Tri-power Carbs. I ease into the peddle and try to match the RPMs to Engine sound. Will the VV Lifters truly give me a snappier like Motorcycle take off response? Who wouldn't want that feeling?

You said: Advancing the cam has really nothing to do with engine noise unless you went so far, the valves are smacking the pistons. In that event it would have bent them and you'd be walking anyhow. I've found that the RAIV cam likes to be at 109-110 ICL in a 455 build with moderate compression. Never used one in a 428 but I still wouldn't advance it very far, maybe 108-109ICL and run with it..........FWIW.....

About the current problem of Vibration or noise in this 428 ci HO Motor I sent my roommate to listen by using a tube to his ear to Engine Block and he came up with this: Noise coming from / near cylinder #1 and #4, called it possible Rod Knock? Then this: Lifter / Valve tap @ #3 and #5 @ idle to 1000 RPM, diminishes after that. possibly bent or burnt Exhaust Valve? Then oil pressure drops from 60 psi cold to 15 psi hot, using an external oil pressure gauge. Indication of worn Mains and Rod Bearings?

I think after looking @ the Spark Plugs, # 3+4 that have Black suit on the positive electrode porcelain area, where heat is measured, I believe, means cold temp. Since they share the same Crank Journals and they may not be firing correctly, perhaps the problem in vibration is reverb in the Intake Manifold. Since I had no Engine issues prior to rebuilding the Trans., I will not believe that this Engine just got weak! Sending Photos of plugs. What do you think?

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Pictures of 1967 Pontiac 428 HO spark plugs, I suspect #3+4 are fowled and causing vibration in the Intake Manifold, that was not present prior to the Trans. rebuild. We rebuilt the Center Tri-power Carb. that had an obstruction in it when we took the vehicle off the road 2 years ago. Presently we test and tuned with this set of plugs as seen here. The main thing is we installed the timing back to factory setting until we purchase the degree wheel so we can know where TDC is on the Exhaust stroke. All the other Plugs have a nice Brown look at the positive porclin electrode area

[ponchorob]

..... still interesting that the ram air 4 cam works good in a 455 or in a 400 with short gear but maybe not so ideal in a 428,,,,,

[Cliff R]

The 455 is an EXCELLENT cam for 400's, 428's and 455's.

In a 400 build with RAII or RAIV heads and 11 to 1 compression hang on to your hat! It's a proven combo and has ran at the top of the pile in Pure Stock Muscle Car drag racing for decades. Of course you MUST team it up with taller gearing and torque converters with good torque multiplication (or manual trans) and there really isn't anything out there that will work better.

In a 455 build I like to see at least 10 to 1 compression using it. I've done a few 455's closer to 9.5 to 1 and it starts to become a little but too much cam for them as the idle quality starts to get "soggy" and power right off idle and lower RPM's start to suffer a bit.

In a 428 build couldn't tell you because I've never built one with a RAIV cam in it. If I did it would have at least 10 to 1 compression, a 3200-3500 stall converter and 3.73 gears or taller. In all honesty I'd probably push the compression up closer to 10.5 to 1 to help offset all that overlap........

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

The 455 is an EXCELLENT cam for 400's, 428's and 455's.

In a 400 build with RAII or RAIV heads and 11 to 1 compression hang on to your hat! It's a proven combo. and has run at the top of the pile in Pure Stock Muscle Car drag racing for decades. Of course, you MUST team it up with taller gearing and torque converters with good torque multiplication (or manual trans) and there really isn't anything out there that will work better.

In a 455 build I like to see at least 10 to 1 compression using it. I've done a few 455's closer to 9.5 to 1 and it starts to become a little but too much cam for them as the idle quality starts to get "soggy" and power right off idle and lower RPM's start to suffer a bit.

In a 428 build couldn't tell you because I've never built one with a RAIV cam in it. If I did it would have at least 10 to 1 compression, a 3200-3500 stall converter and 3.73 gears or taller. In all honesty I'd probably push the compression up closer to 10.5 to 1 to help offset all that overlap........

You said: In a 428 build couldn't tell you because I've never built one with a RAIV cam in it. If I did it would have at least 10 to 1 compression, a 3200-3500 stall converter and 3.73 gears or taller. In all honesty I'd probably push the compression up closer to 10.5 to 1 to help offset all that overlap........

My 428 has the "041" Cam and factory 10.75? CR. Plus, a new Hughes Torque Converter w/1800-2000 RPM stall and 3.23 Gears. Maybe in the future I will add what you speak of. I can tell you this, the rearend is Posi-traction/4-Wheel Disc and will spin the tires like crazy, so I added extra weight in the Trunk so that when it rains, I don't end up in the adjacent lane, which has happened in the past. If I were to race this vehicle, I would certainly pull the Heads and service them depending on their needs, then add the Roads VV Lifters, lower Gears in the Rear and lastly raise the Torque Converter to higher RPMs. That is a lot of money!

First, I need to degree this Motor.
Second, I need to find out where the noise came from in the Motor. My roommate and I discussed this last night and he mentioned that since the Head gaskets Exhaust block-off plugs have dime size holes in them, the reverb in the Intake Manifold could be the cause of the vibration? My existing Exhaust flows out the Headers collectors and go all the way back to the diffuser. Since there is no crossover beyond the collectors the pulse wave could be bouncing off the diffuser and back into the Intake Manifold, plus, then bouncing off each other under the Intake Manifold, causing the negative vibration that we are experiencing?

We pulled the Oil Pan last night to inspect the lower Crank area and all looks well and no Metal to be concerned with thank God. We strained this good oil, just in case there was any debris and we intend on cutting open the Oil filter for a thorough inspection tonight. The Oil Pump, Timing Gears, Johnson Lifters, HD Chrome moly Pushrods and "041" Cam, all came from Butler and have less than ten thousand miles on them over the past 10 years.

One other thing that we need to consider is that since I keep this vehicle in a tent (cover type garage), we had a problem with smelling the gas fumes when the car was off the road. So, we innovated a Metal hose, from a laundry drier Exhaust, slipped over the Tail pipe to outside of the Tent. After a while of using this trick, I noticed that the Motor sounded different, so I discontinued this procedure. I believe we put too much pressure back on the Exhaust system and I was afraid that I might have overloaded the Valve guide seals?

As I said before, I am tempted to pull these Heads, since I am so far into the Engine and then we could see if there is any damage from advancing the Cam, plus, I could see if the Valve Exhaust seats were ever installed after this Motor left the factory. It would be advantageous to know if the Heads and Block received additional Machining?

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Like many before me, you have rebuilt your Engines and now it is my turn to remove the Heads, at last, I have always wondered what they look like?

With the Heads removed it turns out that they may have been removed in the past because it appears that the Pontiac mod. to the water jackets have been initiated. At first glance the water jackets between the center exhaust jackets have been filled in, however, I don't see the front Head or Block ones filled in to have the water enter to the rear of the Heads. I have read the way to perform this mod., I just have to dig around my archive's to find the forum member who coached me on this in the past. I do Intend on sending these Heads out to be repaired. From what I can see it uses the 10.75 cr 428 HO type pistons. The Exhaust valves do not contain Hardened seats and some are flush to the Head and some are not, one is below flush, so it is good that I decided to plunge into this motor at this time.

First, I must purchase the degree wheel that I was told to get and I need to buy the gasket set to put the Engine back together. I want to change the Valves to the modern ones. As far as the springs are concerned, since they appear to work fine, I would like to at least shim them to even spring pressure and will ask the shop to do so. I will ask the cost to Port the Heads to the Intake Manifold. I don't think Porting the runners is necessary for a street Vehicle like mine is. I plan on using the original Rockers for now, trying to get as much out of the bottom end of this original Engine. All at the bottom end looks well and has always been strong there too.

Work done to this 1967 428 ci HO motor over the past 10 years and less than 10 k miles since I owned it is this: New 041 Cam, Johnson Lifters, Adjustable Timing Chain and Gears, HD Chrome moly Pushrods, oil pump, oil pan, Drip rails under the Valve covers, Rebuilt Tri-power Carbs., MSD Ignition, Electronic Distributor, HD Rocker shaft studs, and a recently rebuilt TH 400 by yours truly. I have some photos to share and any input on the topic is welcome, thank you in advance, Mike out. P.S. I will be measuring the Cylinders at the top, middle and bottom next, so far, the cylinder walls look un- scratched.