[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by Lee

I did an EFI system on a '68 Firebird last year, TanksInc tank.

I bought TWO 3/8" fuel lines from SS Tubes. I was able to mount them parallel to each other. I used 3/8"T to -6 compression fittings on each end to make the connections.

This is a good idea.

Depending on the amount of Serviceability the OP needs with this, I would consider adding the regulator where the subframe crossover rubber hose would be, then either running the cross-over hardline and then hose up to the carb, or running hose from the regulator up to the carb.

This would give a more stock like appearance and routing.

[Formulajones]

That works well too. I've done the 1/2" steel tubing side by side for the bigger HP stuff and buy it from either inline or SS tubing as mentioned.
I hide the regulator where the mechanical fuel pump would go and at that point I bend a steel 3/8 line to the carb for stock appearances. Quite honestly everyone that looks at it has no clue it's a stout fuel system with a pump in the tank, there is nothing under the hood that can be seen to give it away.

Just a heads up, it's no cheaper to do it that way than it is to buy 50 feet of -8 AN hose with necessary fittings. It comes out to almost the same price. I do them both ways here.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Lee

I did an EFI system on a '68 Firebird last year, TanksInc tank.

I bought TWO 3/8" fuel lines from SS Tubes. I was able to mount them parallel to each other. I used 3/8"T to -6 compression fittings on each end to make the connections.

Yeah that's an excellent way to do it. 3/8" is fine for EFI too, good to over 650hp. Carb tho...

How did you make the transition where factory used rubber? Know there's one from the line to tank area, and on unibody cars there's another from body to front frame section.

Some compression fittings are not recommended for steel lines, one thing to watch out for.


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[Lee]

A quick view of how I ran the lines: https://youtu.be/mpGT-Dz75Hc?si=QwAc8ZALDF9JxDH1&t=60

[Lee]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

How did you make the transition where factory used rubber? Know there's one from the line to tank area, and on unibody cars there's another from body to front frame section.

Some compression fittings are not recommended for steel lines, one thing to watch out for.
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The hard lines run from close to the tank, to past the firewall - 1-piece. I have push-lock AN hoses connecting the tank to the hard lines, then braided stainless AN under the hood.

Agree, on the compression fittings. I had to do some research. I'm about to do another EFI system, and bought industrial "Swagelock" type fittings to connect to the steel lines, then use AN adapters on those fittings.

[HWYSTR455]

So you just had the push lock ends made on the line ends? Like OE type? That's a great idea!

And nice it's a 1-piece line, that makes it much simpler. Guessing you have frame connectors?

Eaton made compression fittings (Versa-flare) for steel lines, pretty sure I've posted that before. Aeroquip got bought out by Dan Foss, but they are reproducing a lot of their' stuff. They still use the Aeroquip name, maybe even Eaton. They work with steel and stainless steel, go from like -1 to like -12 or higher.

They make -5 to -6 adapters too, so you can go AN on trans cooler lines. (5/16-3/8)

You can flare steel line and use tube sleeves & nuts, but stainless is too brittle, so compression fittings are a great solution. Flaring steel lines is no fun, but possible.

I looked at the Swagelock AbT stuff, but was having trouble finding some sizes, and sourcing was an issue when I was looking so gave up. I will have to look again, since the Don Foss sources can take time to fill an order. Maybe that's better now, last time I tried was close to when the merger happened.

Both can be used in high psi apps, like brake line, quality stuff.


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[Cliff R]

"My car pulls enough G's to shoot the cigarette lighter out of the dash and into the back seat and flops over the passenger side floor mat, just think what the fuel is doing in the tank and the pressure against it in the fuel line."

Had to chuckle when I read this.

I had to reach over and flip the passengers floor mat back over after every run. I'd also add that if you were wearing a hat and put your sunglasses on it theer was a good chance they would end up in the back seat or against the back window! I made a time run once with half a can of soda on the front seat between my legs and was wearing most of it and looking for a paper towel coming back up the return road to get my time slip!

Getting back to the topic, it is ALWAYS best to "push" fuel than to "pull" it. An in tank pump, sumped factory tank with a good eletric pump mounted behind it, or fuel cell with a rear mounted pump is pretty much required for one of these cars IF you are making good power and have good traction.

I've tried all sorts of mechanical pumps and larger feed lines but they NEVER work as well as a free flow rear located electric pump, and I always use a return to take the load off the pump so you don't fry the brushes in a month of so of street use........

[HWYSTR455]

I see a lot of people insisting on mech pumps, and insisting they 'work', but in the end, many switch, and glad they did.

With a carb, e-pump with bypass regulator is the only way to go. Period. People can argue all they want, but time and time again, it's proven it can't even come close to an e-pump w bypass regulator.

Same with fuel line size. "It works fine", and then when they change to 1/2" they are like "I picked up 3/10ths in the 1/8th!" .

That's not only what you picked up.

And don't talk to me about any mech pump working. Not even the go-to ones. They don't work.

I have an image in my mind of all these garages with an almost new mech pump sitting on the shelf. Or multiple sitting on a shelf.

If you're doing it, do it right, do it once. And you will never have to worry about it again.


.*

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[78w72]

All depends on the application of the car... mech pumps do "work fine" on millions of classic cars before the factory put e-pumps in the tank. Its only for fast drag racers that an e-pump or big fuel lines are needed.

For the majority of street/strip cars up to about mid 12's a mech pump does work & is very reliable, or at least they were before the china made stuff. I used an edelbrock mech pump at first on a ~520hp pump gas engine that made that number on a dyno, worked great on the street and down to low 12's at the track on first time out with crappy tires but cut out trying to go any faster. Once I got new tires & a robbmc 1100 pump with some tuning sorted out on the car it went 11.2-11.3 at 121-123mph, but does still have occasional cut out on some runs.

I agree an E pump is best for these types of cars, but a mech works fine for street and most street/strip cars running in the mid to upper 12's. Intank is nice with the baffles, but I have heard of & seen way too many cars on the side of the road with failed loud external pumps. In tank is in my future but the deadhead mech works pretty darn good down to low 11s which is a lot more than I expected from this engine/car.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by 78w72

All ... mech pumps do "work fine" ....... mech pump does work .....but cut out trying to go any faster...... robbmc 1100 pump... but does still have occasional cut out on some runs.....

Denial....

I rest my case.


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[Joe-Touring]

Originally Posted by Lee

Agree, on the compression fittings. I had to do some research. I'm about to do another EFI system, and bought industrial "Swagelock" type fittings to connect to the steel lines, then use AN adapters on those fittings.

I work in aerospace R&D, we use Swagelok stuff daily for test rigs. VERY high quality, simple to install, withstands heat/cold, pressure cycling, vibration, no leaks. Completely different animal compared to regular compression fittings. Only downsides are cost(as usual, the best stuff is $$$) and availability for non-business entities.

One tip I would pass on, Swagelok has brass fittings, if anyone decides to go that route, make sure you buy any steel fitting in the same size for the initial swage. Trying to swage the collars onto steel line with a brass fitting may result in damage to the brass fitting or an improper swage.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Denial....

I rest my case.


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Hyperbole...

What case? Must've missed the part about only really fast cars need electric pumps... stock, mild build & even somewhat fast cars in the 12s do not "need" E-pumps.

I agree they are best when making higher HP or for autox & drag use, but for all other average street cars, millions of factory cars from 60s-early 80's or even some higher HP cars mech pumps work perfectly fine.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by 78w72

Hyperbole...

What case? Must've missed the part about only really fast cars need electric pumps... stock, mild build & even somewhat fast cars in the 12s do not "need" E-pumps.

I agree they are best when making higher HP or for autox & drag use, but for all other average street cars, millions of factory cars from 60s-early 80's or even some higher HP cars mech pumps work perfectly fine.

The problem is they aren't made to a quality standard anymore. You can't go down to the part store and pick up something that is going to be remotely reliable even in a mild application anymore.

In order for you to accomplish what you did with your mechanical pump, you had to purchase one that is close to $300.00 bucks, then add much larger fuel lines and you still claim that on your combo it occasionally cuts out.

A genuine TI Automotive Walbro 255lph pump will fuel up to around 630 hp in a carbureted application and costs about $120 bucks and will last for a decade or so, if not longer.

That makes the adaptation of an in-tank electric pump nearly a wash on a cost basis. You save a bit on the pump, still have to buy the fuel lines and regulator, but you need to either mod your original tank or buy a new one. We're no longer talking about having to spend $1000.00 more to do it, it's more like $200.00 more.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

The problem is they aren't made to a quality standard anymore. You can't go down to the part store and pick up something that is going to be remotely reliable even in a mild application anymore.

In order for you to accomplish what you did with your mechanical pump, you had to purchase one that is close to $300.00 bucks, then add much larger fuel lines and you still claim that on your combo it occasionally cuts out.

A genuine TI Automotive Walbro 255lph pump will fuel up to around 630 hp in a carbureted application and costs about $120 bucks and will last for a decade or so, if not longer.

That makes the adaptation of an in-tank electric pump nearly a wash on a cost basis. You save a bit on the pump, still have to buy the fuel lines and regulator, but you need to either mod your original tank or buy a new one. We're no longer talking about having to spend $1000.00 more to do it, it's more like $200.00 more.

..." or at least they were before the china made stuff." There are still some good mech pumps, carter, holley, edlebrock.

When I bought the robbmc pump it wasnt $300, closer to $225 10+ years ago. I bought the 1/2" fuel when restoring the car so would have had to buy new lines anyways. Yes it does cut out occasionally but at almost flat 11's... will click off 11.4-11.5 all day long with no issues & the pump isnt turned up all the way, thats pretty good for a mech pump IMO... hence the statement that only really fast cars "need" E-pumps.

Im considering an intank pump in the future, but its definitely not a wash, the tanksinc set up with baffled tank is over $600 with a pump and thats with the crappy sender depending where you buy from, the good sender is another ~$100, plus a regulator & required return lines & electrical relay/wiring. Still close to $1000 to do that. And I can sell the robbmc pump & pickup for close to $300 to recoup most of that investment...

Not sure why there's a problem with saying the average street car does not need a E-pump, this is the street section after all and Id wager at least 90% or more use mech pumps.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by 78w72

..." or at least they were before the china made stuff." There are still some good mech pumps, carter, holley, edlebrock.

When I bought the robbmc pump it wasnt $300, closer to $225 10+ years ago. I bought the 1/2" fuel when restoring the car so would have had to buy new lines anyways. Yes it does cut out occasionally but at almost flat 11's... will click off 11.4-11.5 all day long with no issues & the pump isnt turned up all the way, thats pretty good for a mech pump IMO... hence the statement that only really fast cars "need" E-pumps.

Im considering an intank pump in the future, but its definitely not a wash, the tanksinc set up with baffled tank is over $600 with a pump and thats with the crappy sender depending where you buy from, the good sender is another ~$100, plus a regulator & required return lines & electrical relay/wiring. Still close to $1000 to do that. And I can sell the robbmc pump & pickup for close to $300 to recoup most of that investment...

Not sure why there's a problem with saying the average street car does not need a E-pump, this is the street section after all and Id wager at least 90% or more use mech pumps.

Honestly, have you seen the quality of Holley and Edelbrock stuff lately? I really doubt that their mechanical pumps are much better.

And yeah my point was that you're going to have to do the lines and everything anyhow. Not that the whole thing isn't expensive, but doing a robbmc pump, 1/2 lines and sender etc is also going to be quite a bit more expensive. I guess for me personally, I'll pay a couple hundred more to include a new tank in that equation and know that my fuel system is rock solid.

I'd also like to point out that the OP's own cost analysis put the difference at about $250.00 and included the tanks inc tank.

Another point I'd like to make about the street section is that many of those engines here are now 450-500 hp street engine. Almost everyone rolls around with a 460+cid engine with modern or modernized components that have pushed average power well above what these cars left the factory with. Nobody here is telling the guy with a stockish 350 that they need this type of fuel system...though it's not going to hurt them either.

[HWYSTR455]

Since we're bring up past comments:

"If you're doing it, do it right, do it once. And you will never have to worry about it again."

Why spend money on a marginal system? The moment anything changes, you have to look at all the items that need to meet the change(s). In the long run, it costs more. It's like buying a stroker kit with cast pistons, just makes no sense to me.

400s & 455s pushed the factory limit even back in the day. My fuel systems were taxed once I went over 400hp, or that's where it became very obvious.

Hobbyists always look to improvements on their' cars, or most do. Minute you go to even just a new cam, you will have to go over the fuel system again.

Many don't even realize they are nosing-over/laying-down, UNTIL they 'fix' their' fuel systems.

'Fine' is a vague description. For me, it's more 'on' or 'off'. Why compromise?

I really don't care much about how others 'do' things to their' cars, and when someone asks my opinion, I tell them. Take it or leave it. I'm not going to sugar-coat anything, and I don't mean to offend. People that meet me in person realize that, something that's hard to determine over text.


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[Formulajones]

It's a case by case basis as to which setup I'd pick, and sometimes certain circumstances dictate the decision. There are instances where running a stock fuel system is required (pure stock drags for instance) which is what I have my bird setup for. That's not an easy task and to be honest, even those cars, including my bird, would benefit from a better fuel system, even at near stock HP levels. In fact I plan to experiment that realm in the future with an in tank setup on that car, and I'm betting, even though the car shows no fuel delivery issues now, it'll pick up 3-4 tenths and a few mph. I've been down that road before with another car and it's just a reality that most people won't even realize until they make the switch.

There are also cars that I can't or won't run anything but the OEM fuel system on for different reasons. The biggest difference is that these types of cars probably won't see the dragstrip on a regular basis anyway, and they aren't the type of cars you'd want to modify in that way.

I will say, if you plan on having fun at the dragstrip and it starts to become even just a semi regular thing, even if just once or twice a year, and the car was more of a fun street hot rod type of deal, I'd go straight for an in tank pump and stop fooling around with anything that even remotely resembles a factory setup.

[Cliff R]

"I see a lot of people insisting on mech pumps, and insisting they 'work', but in the end, many switch, and glad they did.

With a carb, e-pump with bypass regulator is the only way to go. Period. People can argue all they want, but time and time again, it's proven it can't even come close to an e-pump w bypass regulator.

Same with fuel line size. "It works fine", and then when they change to 1/2" they are like "I picked up 3/10ths in the 1/8th!" .

That's not only what you picked up.

And don't talk to me about any mech pump working. Not even the go-to ones. They don't work.

I have an image in my mind of all these garages with an almost new mech pump sitting on the shelf. Or multiple sitting on a shelf.

If you're doing it, do it right, do it once. And you will never have to worry about it again."


Plus 2, 3, 4 , 5, 6, 7 & 8. Someone should make this a "stickie".

I spent years and tried EVERYTHING to get by with a mechanical pump and it just flat DID NOT WORK. I even tried a "pusher" pump to feed the damn thing, and still ran into issues on hard launches. All of the efforts I put into making my car fast proved to me that in order to completely get rid of ALL issues with fuel delivery no matter how much power you make or how much work you put into making the car hook-up and fast in a drag race you MUST keep the carb completely FULL on hard runs, and despite what anyone tells you big fuel bowls arent' the answer either.

Sucking fuel any distance from a stock fuel tank is going to be a lesson in humility in the end. simply becasue when you get the car to leave really hard, where it flips over the passengers floor mat, or anything you left on the dash ends up againt the back window, ALL the fuel in the tank is pinned up against the gas cap. That in itself is a simple lesson in basic physics and a BIG clue is to why an engine mounted mechanical pump is NOT the way to cure fuel delivery issues.

The shape of the tanks and sump location in factory gas tanks are not ideal for drag racing with perfect traction, high stall converters and big HP.

The fix to all of it is simple, and I've explained all the drama I went thru many times on here. Bottom line it is always best to install a 10 second fuel delivery system on an 11 second car vs a 12 second fuel delivery system. In any and ALL cases it is ALWAYS better to "push" fuel than to "pull" it. You can also get away with much smaller fuel lines on the pressure side of the pump, and a smaller less output pump if you are pushing fuel vs pulling on it.

What muddies the water on here and any other Forum where this topic comes up is that every single time folks come on here telling us how they run deep into the 11's and some on into the 10's with a stock mechanical pump, stock lines, pick-up and don't do much more than make sure the tank is at least half full on race day........

[78w72]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

Honestly, have you seen the quality of Holley and Edelbrock stuff lately? I really doubt that their mechanical pumps are much better.

And yeah my point was that you're going to have to do the lines and everything anyhow. Not that the whole thing isn't expensive, but doing a robbmc pump, 1/2 lines and sender etc is also going to be quite a bit more expensive. I guess for me personally, I'll pay a couple hundred more to include a new tank in that equation and know that my fuel system is rock solid.

I'd also like to point out that the OP's own cost analysis put the difference at about $250.00 and included the tanks inc tank.

Another point I'd like to make about the street section is that many of those engines here are now 450-500 hp street engine. Almost everyone rolls around with a 460+cid engine with modern or modernized components that have pushed average power well above what these cars left the factory with. Nobody here is telling the guy with a stockish 350 that they need this type of fuel system...though it's not going to hurt them either.

Yes I have seen the quality of those pump, have used 3 different edelbrock pumps in recent years, the one on my car for a few years that I sold to a friend that is still using today & 2 others I suggested for friends cars at 400-425hp, they are nice pumps. Have heard of all kinds of people using the carter pumps & they get very good reviews... I have a auto zone bought stock type pumps on 2 of my cars that also work fine for 10+ years.

I dont doubt that quality has gone down hill in the last decade or so, but there are still decent mech pumps for the average street car & claiming they all "dont work" & everyone needs an E-pump is very exaggerated and not true, as was mentioned on my first reply... all depends on the application of the car.

I agree that doing it from scratch is best to just go tanks inc or other modern E-pump for cars that need more fuel supply than a mech pump can provide... but the large majority of street cars under say 350-400hp can & do work fine on a decent mech pump, its really only fast cars at the track that need more than a mech, my mild cam Q-jet 78TA runs mid 13's at 103+mph using a stock airtex type pump & 3/8" line/pickup, that type of car does not "need" an E-pump.

I added up the tanks inc set up, if bought from tanks inc & adding a good regulator & return lines its just about $1000, a little less buying from a bigger place like summit. The robbmc set up is about $500 for the 1100 pump, 1/2" pickup & line, pump is still only $248 for the newest version, my older adjustable was about $200. From my research tanksinc is about $500 more than the best mech pump setup.

Yes the street section does have some cars at 450-500hp+.. but those are what I consider "fast" cars doing high to low 11's at the track, not really considered the "average" street car I mentioned. So to put a HP number on this, anything below ~400hp running mid to upper 12's can & will do fine on a good mech pump, my car was fine down to 12.2 on a edelbrock pump and zero issues on the street feeding a ~520hp stroker engine with a pontiac intake & q-jet.

Someone here is making blanket statements without any HP# that mech pumps dont work- "With a carb, e-pump with bypass regulator is the only way to go. Period." "And don't talk to me about any mech pump working. Not even the go-to ones. They don't work." My comments were simply stating mech pump do work for all but the very fast cars. Wasnt trying to stir anything up, just stating the reality of mech pumps on average street cars.

[HWYSTR455]

Yeah, I dunno, I've run a bunch of 400ci engines in the 350-400hp range and had problems with mech pumps. What really makes it slap you in the face is when you start going to steeper gears. THEN you realize 'Houston, we have a problem'.

And these problems were across multiple cars, and just about every mech pump out there. I had the best luck with the Carter ones, just to say.

Performance isn't a static value, it changes even through just seasons and temps. What may work in the winter won't work in the summer, and visa-versa.

I recall getting a mech pump setup (step-up actually) and only had what I thought was a hint of a problem, and that appeared to be solved by the new pump. I had intermittent bogs at different points, and under certain conditions. So I thought to myself 'it must be the line size'.

So I went to 1/2" line. The issue was no longer intermittent, and happened all the time now. So started replacing mech pumps and nothing solved it. The mech pump just couldn't handle the volume.

So did I go back to 3/8" line? And mask the problem? Of course not. I ran external e-pumps for a while, and there were some that lasted longer than others. So added a return (bypass regulator), and that made the pumps last longer, and less chance of vapor lock.

You can go thru posts here as I traversed some of that experience, but most was in the 80s & 90s. In the 80s, with a somewhat mild 455 & 3.55 gears, I had to run an e-pump, everyone did. That's one of the things that brought Holley a bunch of revenue, the blue & red pumps. Why did so many use them back then? Because they knew delivery was a common problem with the factory setups.

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