[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

THINGS THAT MAY MAKE A DIFFERENCE!



(5) Prove, by using the Degree Wheel and Dial Indicator, what the current Advance BTDC actually is! Because there is a discrepancy in the directions, according to Forum members, to whether or not the directions mean 4* @ the Cam is actually 8* @ the Cam and 8* @ the Crank means 16* @ the Crank. This discrepancy could mean that I am not advanced to 109-109.5 BTDC at all, I could be at 104-105 BTDC. Continued driving using the wrong setting is both dangerous to the Engine and could be why I am experiencing an increase in Temperature, causing Piston/Rod Knock and a major Heat issue associated with Rod/Piston Rattling. I have been calling this advanced Detonation: Heat soak by mistake. Even though the Cam Timing, in my case, is possibly too advanced, the symptoms sound the same as Ignition Timing. It is as if you were to turn the Distributor too far advanced, when you rotate the entire Dist. too far in one direction and forget to pull it back some while tuning your Engine. Pre-Detonation sound occurs and you can hear its nasty sound that causes the Aluminum from the Pistons to flake off and melt to the Spark plugs inner electrode porcelain area. You should inspect this area as I will soon. The trick that I read is to turn the Ignition Timing at the Distributor until you slightly hear this sound as the increase in RPM stops rising and then move the Distributor back in the opposite direction some and then lock down the Dist. bolt to the Blocks flat flange area, on a tune-up.

I'm not sure where to begin but for starters, you wouldn't or shouldn't be uncertain of where the cam is actually installed if you had a degree wheel on it and went through the procedure correctly.
Now it seems you're not sure if it's installed at 109 or 105 ICL? You really need a degree wheel on the thing, use the .050 method on the intake lobe and see exactly where the ICL is. Now that it's in the car you're going to have a more difficult time with it. Just moving keyways around and hoping it's correct without checking is for sure the worst way to go about it. You might get lucky and hit on something but it's certainly not your current over heat problem and shouldn't be causing detonation issues if the timing is correct.

Speaking of that, the trick is absolutely not to just turn the distributor until you hear bad sounds and then just back it down until they go away. That's a quick way to tear it up as well as give away a lot of missing performance. That distributor needs to be dialed in correctly.

For starters I'd set it up with 12 initial and put 20 degrees of centrifugal in the mechanical advance. This will give you 32 total to start with, which is very conservative. If it makes best power with more total you can simply bump initial to 14 or even 16 for 34 or 36 total. Only way to know that for sure is dyno testing or track testing. Either way, this is a very simple setup and a good starting point for most engines. If you find you want more total timing without the initial beyond 14 for example, you'll have to go back in, move centrifugal out another 2 degrees and try again.
From there dialing in the vacuum advance is imperative and a lost art it seems. I'd be putting about 10-12 degrees of additional vacuum advance on top of those total numbers for decent efficiency during cruise, and will help with engine temperatures as well as drivability and fuel mileage.

Explaining how to do all of this correctly over the internet would be writing a book, and seems to be too complicated for many. If that's the case I'd suggest sending that distributor out to someone qualified to set it up correctly. This is a huge player in engine temperatures as well as drivability. If it's not right, there are a lot of other things it will affect and just makes for a frustrating car to drive.

[78w72]

I think hes referring to "power timing".. but to do that the car needs to be driven under slight load to hear when slight pinging just starts, then you back it off ~2°... you dont just spin the dist while idling until you hear a noise/detonation. reading about things on the internet but not fully understanding them can create lots of problems.

Or if you are a facbook'er, theres one guy out there with a stage 3 super duper this or that, telling everyone to run full initial timing locked out, claims setting the initial to something crazy like 34° is far better than factory initial timing settings & that GM and other brand engineers didnt know what they were doing and caused excessive emissions & poor gas mileage with factory timing specs...

[Formulajones]

That still sounds like a terrible way to do it lol.

There is some truth to the last statement, (minus the lockout idea) as the OEM's weren't too concerned about performance and mileage back then, and their timing curves were slow and very conservative. They were only worried about getting the car past the warranty period.

For sure factory settings aren't going to be optimal, and of course too aggressive doesn't end well either, but there is absolutely performance, and mileage to be found with timing curves if setup properly.

[Tom Vaught]

Timing has killed more engines, Track and Street, (people trying to get .01 on the dragstrip) and it is so much fun constantly repairing the engines.

A tuner in Wisconsin has killed a lot of engines due to talking "lets give her another 2 degrees of timing. Several on the board has had their engines wounded by the "extra 2 degrees of timing" suggestion.

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

Timing has killed more engines, Track and Street, (people trying to get .01 on the dragstrip) and it is so much fun constantly repairing the engines.

A tuner in Wisconsin has killed a lot of engines due to talking "Lets give her another 2 degrees of timing."
Several on the board have had their engines wounded by the "extra 2 degrees of timing" suggestion. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT PAUL K HERE.

Tom V.

[78w72]

Yeah thats not a good way to time the engine, if you didnt have a timing light or care for factory settings ive heard of people doing that.

I agree the factory timing curves werent ideal or intended for max power, its the initial timing being set that high that goes against how most people would set up a street or race engine from what Ive usually read, the timing on the distributor in my 500+hp E-head motor was set up for the cam & other specs, the initial is set to 12, going much higher starts to show harder cranking when hot and loses power. I dont know enough about all the timing ins & outs but setting initial in the 30s or whatever it was isnt too common for most engine combos i read about.

Sorry for the sidetrack...

[Formulajones]

Initial in the 30's is high. You'd need a timing retard for cranking with that. I e seen that more in line with dedicated race cars as it's just easier rather than setting up a curve they just lock it out and have a box to retard for crank. They don't care about drivability.

[NeighborsComplaint]

I think you have just had a brush with reality. Like Harry Callahan said "A man has to know his limitations." You made some assumptions without a full understanding of the relative benefits of changing the cam timing and the ability to measure the resulting change in performance. Thinking you should "advance the cam like the racers do" just threw the cam-designer's R&D to the curb.

Cam companies rely on engineering and R&D departments to come up with camshaft designs that meet the requirements of compartmentalized engine types and engine families. Racers tweak these designs to suit their specific applications using a dyno or an ET slip to validate any improvement or loss in performance.

If you don't have the proper tools (degree wheel, piston stop, solid lifter and a dial indicator with magnetic base) and the know-how to use them, you can't expect your "guess work" to be more accurate than the camshaft and timing set makers' own timing marks.

[jhein]

Originally Posted by i82much

I have always felt that many of these forum debates would be better resolved by cage fighting.

Yeah, but then you'd have to have a thread about which fighting style is best for cage fighting.

And that argument may best be settled by a sword fight.

[Formulajones]

The type of sword or the metal used to make it would be the next debate.
LOL

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

The type of sword or the metal used to make it would be the next debate.
LOL

I had a sword made out of a melted-down 68 "N" crank I got from Nunzi in 1982. We had the metal tested and it was flawless. Everyone I have stabbed with it died a quick, painless death.

I was seven at the time. True story.

[Formulajones]

..............

[steve25]

Another detail with Distributors that gets little coverage is the end play.

If the gear to body clearance is more then .010" then you stand a real good chance of having spark scatter and the resultant deadly crossfire taking place.

The older your Distributor is the more you stand a chance of this taking place.

Unfortunately when this takes place at high rpm and with open Exh, by the time you hear it and or feel it rod Bearing and or Piston damage is already starting.

Ignition systems missing will not cause damage, but crossfire sure will!

Also many new Distributors have too much darn clearance too!

[Cliff R]

"Or if you are a facbook'er, theres one guy out there with a stage 3 super duper this or that, telling everyone to run full initial timing locked out, claims setting the initial to something crazy like 34° is far better than factory initial timing settings & that GM and other brand engineers didnt know what they were doing and caused excessive emissions & poor gas mileage with factory timing specs."

I actually had that guy call here a few months back. It was the most "one sided" conversation I ever had with anyone during my nearly 65 years on this planet. He's so "full of himself" makes you want to PUKE! 99 percent of the conversation was him telling me how great he was, how things should be done, how he does it, and even when he did ask questions he very quickly answered them himself and agreed with the findings. I said very little as I figured out in about .5 milliseconds of our conversation that this guy is a nutter and no amount of information I'd provide would be a complete waste of my time and energy.

He pushes those STOOPID tuning methods all over the place, and actually believes they work or at least are better than the way anyone else does it.

I woln't mention any names but he's not to hard to find if you go looking for him and in his life span has become a LEGEND.......in his own mind!........FWIW......

[Kenth]

Originally Posted by steve25

Another detail with Distributors that gets little coverage is the end play.

If the gear to body clearance is more then .010" then you stand a real good chance of having spark scatter and the resultant deadly crossfire taking place.

The older your Distributor is the more you stand a chance of this taking place.

Unfortunately when this takes place at high rpm and with open Exh, by the time you hear it and or feel it rod Bearing and or Piston damage is already starting.

Ignition systems missing will not cause damage, but crossfire sure will!

Also many new Distributors have too much darn clearance too!

You have obviously NO idea what you are talking about.
Your statement is an old myth that should have died decades ago.

"End play" (up and down) on a factory pontiac distributor is around .060". I have found factory NOS Pontiac distributors with up to .080" end play.
There is NO need to alter this as the helical gears on distributor and camshaft WILL push the gear against the wear shim at ALL times the engine is running.
There is NO shaft wandering up and down as long as the engine is running, and certainly not when letting the foot off of the pedal.
(It´s not like the engine rotation changes direction at retardation.)
And, decrease the end play too much can cause glitter in oil from the oilpump bottom plate shaved by the gears in pump due to a binding oil pump drive shaft.

JFYI

[steve25]

I know who your referencing Cliff and I fully agree.

You can tell by what he post up that he has never driven a car with anyone else’s tune or set up to experience the faults in what he believes in and preaches.

[Ram Air IV Jack]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"Or if you are a facbook'er, theres one guy out there with a stage 3 super duper this or that, telling everyone to run full initial timing locked out, claims setting the initial to something crazy like 34° is far better than factory initial timing settings & that GM and other brand engineers didnt know what they were doing and caused excessive emissions & poor gas mileage with factory timing specs."

I actually had that guy call here a few months back. It was the most "one sided" conversation I ever had with anyone during my nearly 65 years on this planet. He's so "full of himself" makes you want to PUKE! 99 percent of the conversation was him telling me how great he was, how things should be done, how he does it, and even when he did ask questions he very quickly answered them himself and agreed with the findings. I said very little as I figured out in about .5 milliseconds of our conversation that this guy is a nutter and no amount of information I'd provide would be a complete waste of my time and energy.

He pushes those STOOPID tuning methods all over the place, and actually believes they work or at least are better than the way anyone else does it.

I woln't mention any names but he's not to hard to find if you go looking for him and in his life span has become a LEGEND.......in his own mind!........FWIW......

My experiences with many if not most people in those Facebook groups are about the same. FB is not the place to learn about much of anything. Unfortunately, there are blowhards on there that draw a huge audience and lure people into the wrong areas with bogus information. I've even seen FB posts from "supposed" experts listed in the GTOAA and POCI publications telling others of things that are horribly incorrect. This tells me that the prerequisites to become one these "experts" must be low. I mention this group many times to people that want to learn about Pontiacs and everything about them. Hopefully some take my advice and join our group here. FB can be a lot of fun but a great deal of the information there must be looked at with a skeptical eye!!!

[Cliff R]

I'm a moderator on the Facebook Quadrajet page. It's really not much fun, and as you mentioned there are a butt-load of folks who put information up there that should close the laptop and quickly as they possibly can go directly back to their day jobs.

Many times the folks asking questions aren't much better. It says right at the top of the page to provide your carburetor part number when asking for help. Even so you get posts like, "my truck is orange, my engine is painted blue, I have a leather wrapped steering wheel and fuzzy dice hanging from the rear view mirror. When I make a slight left turn at 34.2 MPH I get a slight stumble, what's wrong?"

Instead of contributors asking for more information you start gettng responses like "check the gas cap to make sure it's tight" or "your coil wire is probably loose", or even worse "you need to take the carb apart and put bigger jets in it". I know I'm being a little cynical but this sort of thing happens WAY to often for my liking on those pages......

[Tom Vaught]

A lot of truth there. Thanks Cliff.

Many on the Forums are just buyers and have minimal actual Engine/Trans/Rear Axle
experience (but I do not blame them for that). As they said years ago, "ELVIS has left the building".

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

A lot of truth there. Thanks Cliff.

Many on the Forums are just buyers and have minimal actual Engine/Trans/Rear Axle
experience (but I do not blame them for that). As they said years ago, "ELVIS has left the building".

Tom V.