[Forrest]

Has anyone here heard of or seen or know of anyone doing or had done, a complete frame off rotisserie resto to a #1 condition for 20,000.00 labor plus materials and parts?? This would be a typical gto 70-72 needing a total resto, convert. or hardtop with the usual rust (quarters, lower fenders,ect...maybe some floor work) I will probably be bumping this every now and then to make sure it gets all the attention I can gather.... I'll try to explain my curiosity a little later...Thanx

[MescaBug]

For 20K, I assume you mean body only. Engine work and complete interior will set you back another 5000-6000.... Im asking just so we are clear on what you want.

[Lloyd-TX]

Sounds might damned cheap to me, Forrest.

The way I figure it, considering the current # I've heard per hour, that's only 333 hours of labor?!? Sumthin' ain't right . . .

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by MescaBug

For 20K, I assume you mean body only. Engine work and complete interior will set you back another 5000-6000.... Im asking just so we are clear on what you want.

As my post stated COMPLETE... that means everything! EXCEPT: engine is the one thing that would be "farmed out" because of the machine work necessary. So that would come under the parts category. ALL other work is done by the restorer.

[MescaBug]

Impossible. Unless you cut corners, or get dirt cheap labor. It can be done if you do much of the work yourself. You have at least, what, 10-12K just in parts?

Or.. If the car is already in very decent condition...

[goldeneyee]

$20,000.00 is certainly in the ballpark for disassembling the car, body work and, paint ONLY. provided you are not dealing with a rust bucket. Interior, drive train (engine, transmission, rear) including suspension, brakes, tires will run you another say $11,000.00. Incidentals, which are too numerous to completely list (not including replacement parts), but including chrome plating, stainless work etc. another $5,000.00. When you are all done and IF you personally contribute substantial time and effort, figure on $50,000.00 plus. Again, this would depend on the model and condition of car, availibility of replacement parts and area of the country where the work is being performed.

[Goat & Chicken Farmer]

So far, dad has spent over $30,000 on body work and paint alone. This is a complete, one owner car, full frame off rotisserie job including media blasting, cleaning out and re-seam sealing all body seams, little to no rust repair needed, creases on driver front and rear fenders at hip line, powder coated chassis and suspension components. My dad and I have spent countless hours of labor as we are re-fitting everything ourselves. Each part, especially the aftermarket and remanufactured parts are usually a rough fit and require massaging. Each week we place about a $1000.00 parts order from PY, Ames, In-line tube, etc. Some parts are un-obtainable. $4000 engine and trans, $800 exhaust system, $600 wiring harness’s, $900 for a dash pad restoration, $800 to restore seat belts, $800 to restore and upgrade a/c system, $170 each to polish windows, $600 stereo system $400 in paint, and supplies for all miscellaneous parts, $800 in bright work...I could go on and on and we are only about 3/4 of the way done.

I suppose a guy could throw a car back together and not worry too much about fit and finish…heck they look good in a photo from 20 feet away, or going down the road at 70 mph! My dad is seeking perfection to a fault, I won’t be as picky on my Firebird but to do it right in does require some budget.

[MescaBug]

Originally Posted by Forrest

I'll try to explain my curiosity a little later...Thanx

Im curious . If you can get a complete resto for 20K, I'll give ya 5K for that contact

[Goat & Chicken Farmer]

Originally Posted by MescaBug

Im curious . If you can get a complete resto for 20K, I'll give ya 5K for that contact

I'll get in line!

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by MescaBug

Im curious . If you can get a complete resto for 20K, I'll give ya 5K for that contact

20k PLUS parts, remember??

[Mark Simiele]

Its a minimum of $50,000 to $100,000 plus all day long for a complete frame off concours resto. Heck, I cringe when I look at the total saved reciepts for my car over the almost 18 years of owning and restoring it.

[Rob B]

Originally Posted by Forrest

20k PLUS parts, remember??

There are a lot of variable that go into something like this but depending on the condition of the car, how it is received, and ALL parts being covered, its possibly doable. A rust bucket needing extensive sheet metal work that has been hacked on for the last 25 years? no. But if the cars shell/frame is blasted, stripped, or dipped and the cost and time of that is picked up in the "Parts" side of it and the body is for the most part solid, Its within reason.
If a shop charges you $40 and hr, 20K gets you 500 hrs and obviously if the shop charges more or less,dictates the hours spent. What makes this a none workable idea is that the shops generally try to make a little on parts or materials and if that equation is stripped from the restoration, it takes away some of the profitabilty of the car from the shop doing the resto. Just like a machine shop wants to sell you the bearing, rings gaskets, etc when they are machining your block/heads. It just gives them the little extra revenue on parts you"ll need to buy anyway. A competent shop would surprise you on just how fast they can strip a car down to a bunch of bags and boxes as well as reassemblying that same car correctly. I always try to remember that these cars were built in a matter of a day or two from nothing, not months or years we spend in restoring them.

[marxjunk]

too cheap..usually if the deal seems too good to be true it is..PERIOD....

Plus..one mans version of a resto might not even qualify as a driver resto to another..tooo many variables, but if it isnt touching 50Gs its probably not a real quote, i cant tell you how many times the shop says 20 and the final bill is 45-50....id be cautious..

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by Mark Simiele

Its a minimum of $50,000 to $100,000 plus all day long for a complete frame off concours resto.

Yep!

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

It could be done for that if a 1 or 2 man shop/barn/building, in their own backyard.
They would make around $20 per hour tax free @ 1000 hours.
We're talking JUST LABOR. No masking tape, primer, bondo, etc... etc... to be included.
And pro-rated spool of welding wire and argon bottle if very much welding.

Most shops are 35-50 per hour. And log the man hours and materials.

You can't pay rent, commissions, insurances, or very much climate control at that number. Bare bones operation.

You won't find many qualified candidates in that scenario.
But i'm sure they do exist few and far between.

The outcome would be determined by the quality and amount of new parts purchased and used. They couldn't be held to make new things fit that don't fit without additional recourse.

And it wouldn't be a an example of where every reconditioned/re-used item had every ounce of tender loving care poured into it to be absolutely flawless in every angle or corner.

Thats about the best you could possibly hope for at that contract.

Greg T. could probably do a 69 for that. He's done so many so regularly and is so affluent with them.
Maybe a 70-72 too ....

[russosborne]

It could be someone who is retired/semiretired. Remember, the $20K is JUST labor. Not the parts or materials, including tape. :-)
Could be done if someone has more time than money and just wants something productive to do.

If it is a real "in business" shop, then yeah, there is probably something not right. The op didn't give any clue as to who would be doing this.

IMHO,
Russ

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

It could be done for that if a 1 or 2 man shop/barn/building, in their own backyard.
They would make around $20 per hour tax free @ 1000 hours.
We're talking JUST LABOR. No masking tape, primer, bondo, etc... etc... to be included.
And pro-rated spool of welding wire and argon bottle if very much welding.

Most shops are 35-50 per hour. And log the man hours and materials.

You can't pay rent, commissions, insurances, or very much climate control at that number. Bare bones operation.

You won't find many qualified candidates in that scenario.
But i'm sure they do exist few and far between.

The outcome would be determined by the quality and amount of new parts purchased and used. They couldn't be held to make new things fit that don't fit without additional recourse.

And it wouldn't be a an example of where every reconditioned/re-used item had every ounce of tender loving care poured into it to be absolutely flawless in every angle or corner.

Thats about the best you could possibly hope for at that contract.

Greg T. could probably do a 69 for that. He's done so many so regularly and is so affluent with them.
Maybe a 70-72 too ....

O/k, a little twist to this thread starter... Most of you know that I own a shop and have been restoring gto's for around 15 years or so,mostly 70-71 gto convertibles . Barons response is what I was looking for more or less! I was contacted by someone to do 2 maybe 3 restos on his 3 '70 judges. The guy said he had a shop in Washington state that was doing it for him for 20k plus parts for the last couple of years or so. Ran into some problems with him (after he had done a few cars already for him) Of course he wanted me to do them for the same price. Now Baron pretty much summed up my way of running my shop, with the exception of a barn/backyard work area! I have a fully operational shop with paint booth ect...even do my own zinc/cad plating.and stainless straightening /polishing. I do ALL the work here.The ONLY thing I farm out is the machining of the block and maybe chrome work. Everything is done here except that. Now a restorer can restore a rusted out car using ALOT of after market parts e.g. fenders,hood, quarters, trunk lids, floors ect.. essentially put together a car that basically needs "no sheet metal work", therefore MUCH less time in hours "restoring the car" but isn't really restoring, what it's all about?. So you end up with an "after market car" that has very little of anything original. My philosophy is to use as little after market as possible meaning more work to make the original parts come back to life and be good enough for a "near original" #1 car. I do not charge by the hour. I'm by the job. Been doing these gto's so much that I know what I'm in for pretty much before I start. I'll continue on a next page, and thanx for all the input!

[Jerry H.]

He's either crazy or is not getting very good work. I'll throw this out for example. I was very familiar with the 69 Black Ram Air IV Judge Convert that was owned by Milt Robson that sold for over $600,000. My best friend restored it out of his 1 man shop. However, he farmed out the paint & body work. After complete dis assembly the shell, doors, hood, truck, etc was taken over to the painter. JUST the price for the paint and body work was over $25,000. This included NO re assembly except for help in re aligning the fenders, doors, etc. when they were back on the car. The total labor costs for restoration, with the cost of the paint job, was over 100k. This included no parts, except some minor shop supplies. Don't get involved with this guy unless he pays you by the hour.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I've also been paint/body tech most of my life.
Heavier towards the paint side.
And i've wrenched everything since i was a kid.

I could have done that $25k part on Milt's car for $8-10k and still felt fat as a hog. lol
And Black is my specialty. Just for another example.
That shop got their piece of the pie absolutely.

In these days and times, sometimes you have to make certain concessions to work at home.
The rat race of society in general, the beauracy and red tape of working under commission for a dealership or shop and the constant battle to get paid right from bad estimates. Not to mention majority of production shops are struggling around here to keep techs busy all week. For some guys, life is better to work from a home shop for $20 an hour average - cash on table.

But most guys in that position, don't want full frame off restos.
I know i don't --- at the moment.

I don't think i would include the rebuilding/internal overhaul of engine - trans - differential in the 20k. And i know the seat recovering and headliner/vinyl top/vert top wouldn't be included either.

Otherwise, its pretty do-able for a home-shop tech with the ability.
For around that figure.

I'd just want to pay for the work on my car and the guy doing the work.
I wouldn't want to be paying towards office furniture, or the people who sit at the desks wearing ties and dresses, or the people who cut their checks, or the ones who sign their checks. F them. lol sorry

[Rob B]

Thats what I was trying to get at in my first response to what Baron Mentions is his last post. If a qualified person who may be struggling to keep work right now has the place, equipment, tools etc etc and everything down to the rolls of tape and masking paper is covered/supplied by the owner of the car plus it being a "cash deal", I can see it being easily doable. Again, many variable apply based upon the original condition of the car.
If the right car was brought to me and I was asked to do it for that price, I'd probably take it on if it was a "cash" deal.