[JLMounce]

I can offer a counter to the hyd roller lifter bad thing. I have Lunati branded morels in my 455 on a mild 232/238 stick. I just popped open the engine recently to reseal the valley pan and check everything out.

At roughly 20K miles, the lifters are in good shape. Performance and reliability has never been an issue for me with these lifters, they're just a bit noisy. That said, when I reset the valves after checking everything out I put slightly more pre-load on the lifters than I had when I installed the HS rockers. This did actually quiet the valvetrain down noticeably.

I wasn't in the mood for measuring for and buying new pushrods, so I wasn't able to try out Cliff's suggestion of lashing with a .010 feeler gauge. I went about a 1/4 turn further than I did when I installed the HS rockers though. Based on my setup I need roughly 3/4's of a turn of pre-load per Morel's documentation. Previously I stopped an 1/8 of a turn before 3/4 installed the set screw and tightened to 3/4's. This go around I went all the way to 3/4's then tightened with the set screw another 1/8th turn.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

I can offer a counter to the hyd roller lifter bad thing. I have Lunati branded morels in my 455 on a mild 232/238 stick. I just popped open the engine recently to reseal the valley pan and check everything out.

At roughly 20K miles, the lifters are in good shape. Performance and reliability has never been an issue for me with these lifters, they're just a bit noisy. That said, when I reset the valves after checking everything out I put slightly more pre-load on the lifters than I had when I installed the HS rockers. This did actually quiet the valvetrain down noticeably.

I wasn't in the mood for measuring for and buying new pushrods, so I wasn't able to try out Cliff's suggestion of lashing with a .010 feeler gauge. I went about a 1/4 turn further than I did when I installed the HS rockers though. Based on my setup I need roughly 3/4's of a turn of pre-load per Morel's documentation. Previously I stopped an 1/8 of a turn before 3/4 installed the set screw and tightened to 3/4's. This go around I went all the way to 3/4's then tightened with the set screw another 1/8th turn.

Can I ask when running it all out what RPM do you shift at?

Stan

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Can I ask when running it all out what RPM do you shift at?

Stan

5700. It'll spin to 6200 fairly easily, but there's no power up there with my combination. I also still have factory rods, so I try not to push it.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

5700. It'll spin to 6200 fairly easily, but there's no power up there with my combination. I also still have factory rods, so I try not to push it.

Thanks. I am just trying to get an idea where they work OK.

Stan

[Stan Weiss]

I don't have any good formulas for valve train loads. But if they work like crank, rod, and piston loads they are not linear but more exponential with RPM.

The last pull before the lifter problem Slowbird / Brian's engine made peak HP @ 6000 RPM. From 5800 to 6200 it was within 2.3 HP of peak HP.

Stan

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Thanks. I am just trying to get an idea where they work OK.

Stan

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

I don't have any good formulas for valve train loads. But if they work like crank, rod, and piston loads they are not linear but more exponential with RPM.

The last pull before the lifter problem Slowbird / Brian's engine made peak HP @ 6000 RPM. From 5800 to 6200 it was within 2.3 HP of peak HP.

Stan

FWIW, my cam uses the comp XFI lobes which are quite aggressive for a hyd profile. I'm sure that's part of the equation as well.

I'm personally somewhat in agreement that if the design parameters for the build has power much above where you would typically see it for a 460" build, I'd be looking at solid (flat or roller)

[tom s]

For those that might not have seen it,I will post this thread from this site.It was a 366 std deck NASCAR engine with NO light weight parts.With the 2-4 tunnel ram it MADE HP to 6700 when Joe shut it off,was still climbing.This was with the Comp Shaver sissy lifters as Joe called them.I believe it would have made HP to 7000.10.2 deck with 7 inch rods and std 455 piston.Tom

[slowbird]

I feel very confident in saying rpm wasn't any issue for me nor was valvetrain control. Things were very happy (lifter chatter even got quite a bit better) up until the issue.

[J Druin]

Steve, I'm not sure when Dave made those statements but I thinks he has changed his position for now. Here is what he told me back in April when I asked about what HR lifter he recommend for his OF 2.0 cam. " Hyd. roller lifters is a bad word around here!LOL I really don’t know what to recommend at this point but if I was going to try something I’d go with a short travel lifter. I’ve gone back to running the Crower solid roller lifters with pressure pin oiling set at .006” lash on the hyd. roller cams until I can find a lifter with the correct oil band location that is reliable as I’m tired of losing money selling hyd. roller lifters with all the issues we had in the last year or so."

[Steve C.]

J Druin
Good information, thanks for that update. Those comments from Dave were within two different threads quite some time ago. One thread was regarding the use of solid roller lifters on his Old Faithful cam. Not sure about the other.

.

[chuckies76ta]

Originally Posted by slowbird

So just what are the proper hydraulic roller lifters???

Sorry to hear of your troubles.

These guys. https://johnsonlifters.com/



I had a set in one of my engines and is now in a friends engine bay and still rolling along fine with lots of miles. I sold him the engine 3 or 4 years ago. I set the preload with a dial gauge and it has not been touched since.



I now run Crower solid roller lifters as Cliff mentioned.. no issues..

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

I can offer a counter to the hyd roller lifter bad thing. I have Lunati branded morels in my 455 on a mild 232/238 stick. I just popped open the engine recently to reseal the valley pan and check everything out.

At roughly 20K miles, the lifters are in good shape. Performance and reliability has never been an issue for me with these lifters, they're just a bit noisy. That said, when I reset the valves after checking everything out I put slightly more pre-load on the lifters than I had when I installed the HS rockers. This did actually quiet the valvetrain down noticeably.

I wasn't in the mood for measuring for and buying new pushrods, so I wasn't able to try out Cliff's suggestion of lashing with a .010 feeler gauge. I went about a 1/4 turn further than I did when I installed the HS rockers though. Based on my setup I need roughly 3/4's of a turn of pre-load per Morel's documentation. Previously I stopped an 1/8 of a turn before 3/4 installed the set screw and tightened to 3/4's. This go around I went all the way to 3/4's then tightened with the set screw another 1/8th turn.

I used the Lunati branded Morels on the last 455 build I did. Waited months for Johnsons and just couldn't get them.
It was on a custom 239/243 cam that Paul spec'd using voodoo lobes. It was done making power at 5700 but it was pulled to 6000 numerous times, still carried the power out there pretty well. Paul also did his lifter bore mod on this block. Those lifters are still working fine in that engine.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

The last pull before the lifter problem Slowbird / Brian's engine made peak HP @ 6000 RPM. From 5800 to 6200 it was within 2.3 HP of peak HP.

Stan

For how mild the combo is what was making some good stream. From 5700 to 6300 hp on veried 4.1 hp.

[PAUL K]

Pretty much the entire performance aftermarket industry is on a downward trend... Some companies by choice and others a victim of circumstances.

[Cliff R]

Outsourcing has not been good for the hobby, that's for sure.

What many folks don't realize is that the demand for less expensive parts results in companies going offshore or South of the Border to have them made.

The Chinese, for example are "hungry". They have excellent copy cat abilities, and will do what it takes to get your contract, even if it means promising low production numbers. Problem with all that is that they have no loyalties to the person who has them make the parts, so if you get tangled up with them having a part made, don't be surprised if it's up on Ebay from multiple sellers for LESS than you are paying for it before you get your first shipment!

The other fact in the matter is that the Chinese are fully capable of making top quality parts, as good as or even better than anything you could get done here. Problem is that at the price point we are willing and wanting to pay you aren't going to get high quality parts, just their bottom of the barrel efforts to meet the quota.

I'm in the parts business here, have been for quite a few years. EVERYTHING I have made is done here in the USA. It's a tough pill to swallow at times and most of the companies I deal with woln't even return your calls if you aren't wanting 10,000 pieces per order! Even if you insist on less the price point is so high you end up better off doing at 10,000 parts run instead even if you can't sell all of it.

To add insult to injury folks also believe that USA companies are making far superior stuff. Just because it is made here doesn't mean it's a top quality part or component. Take Poulan chainsaws, for example. The box store stuff they have been selling for years is pure JUNK, USA made or not. Even though none of it is worth two squirts of duck poop every Walmart you walk into will have shelves full of them. So what has happened in that market is that the folks making really good chainsaws, Husqvarna, Stihl, etc started offer "box store" level stuff at rock bottom prices to compete, so the market is flooded with junk even though it may be made by a reputable company.

What that means for us here is that folks are ALWAYS looking at price when they are rounding up parts for their engine builds. So Google drives the industry and more times than not buyers search in vain for the absolute lowest price on an item plus free shipping and end up sacrificing quality as a result.

I still remember when Crane offered their excellent retrofit HR lifters are $800 a set. At the same time Comp, Lunati, Howards, etc were less than half that price, so everyone went that direction instead. The lower cost stuff, most supplied by Morel have been plagued with issues from day one.

I noticed when assembling HR lifter set-ups in these engines that nearly every single time the lifters had changes made to them. This included plunger travel distance and how strong the springs were under the plungers. Leak down rates were all over the map and it was rare to find a set that you could just run down to zero and give them 1/4 to 1/2 a turn and end up with a quiet valve train once the engine was up and running.

For this reason I decided to go the "hybrid" route using Crower HIPPO lifters. All of the engines we've done with them have been flawless from day one. The down side is having to run really tight lash and keep a close eye on it. We experimented with lash, setting them dead cold and recording the increases once fully warmed up and settled on .003". This works perfectly and you get the full benefit of the cam lobe profiles. Increasing it much more results in higher vacuum at idle speed so we know we're starting to loose some of the lobe potential.

Anyhow, as it relates here no surprise at all to see a rocker arm laying sideways trying to spin up a Morel lifter set-up past 6000rpms. Most likely the springs just went "stupid" at high RPM's even though they are strong enough for the task at hand. We call that "lifter crash" here, and I've seen it more than once with engine built in similar fashion when we tried to spin them up pretty hard on the dyno......FWIW.......Cliff

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

... Based on my setup I need roughly 3/4's of a turn of pre-load per Morel's documentation. Previously I stopped an 1/8 of a turn before 3/4 installed the set screw and tightened to 3/4's. This go around I went all the way to 3/4's then tightened with the set screw another 1/8th turn.

That's pretty much what I do too, with aluminum heads/iron block. I think I go 3/4, then take up slack on the set screw, and go about a 1/16th - 1/8th of a turn.

One set I have is a Howards branded Morel, and the other a Lunati branded Morel. I just bought 2 more sets for 2 new engines, both sets were branded Lunati. One engine ran on a test stand for a reasonable time, varying RPM, the other should be started in the next couple months.

I follow the John Callies instructions, which is the Morel instruction, with one exception. I soak them in solvent, dry, then soak them in oil. I've heard ATF is fine to soak them in too. I refuse to not clean them, regardless of the recommendation.

Here are the John C. instructions:


Page 1
Installing and Adjusting Morel Hydraulic Lifters:
1. Do not wash in any solvent. Wipe the parts off with a lint free towel.
2. Use 10W30 oil and lube the O.D. of the body and wheel.
3. Make sure the lifter-to-bore clearance on cast iron blocks is: .0015” - .0017”. On aluminum blocks that oil the lifter (LS Series), the clearance is: .0014” - .0016”. Both of these measurements are at 70 Deg F. The aluminum block will have a higher rate of expansion and that is why the clearance is tighter.

Adjusting the Zero-lash setting of the Lifter:
1. I always like using the firing order to set the valves. Put the engine on #1 cylinder.
2. What we want is the int. and ex. to be on the base circle of the camshaft.
3. Adjust the rocker until the push rod just starts to get tight while taking the pushrod and rolling it between your thumb and finger. Once you feel drag, this is what we call Zero-lash.
4. You are now ready to tighten down on the adjuster using the following method:
a. It is important to know the thread pitch, in threads per inch, of the adjuster nut, because one complete turn of the nut will move a distance of one complete thread. Therefore, verify the thread pitch of the adjuster nut, because racing rocker manufacturers use different nut sizes and thread pitches.
b. If your adjuster nut is 7/16 x 20 threads per inch, then divide 1 inch by 20threads per inch. One complete turn down on a 7/16 by 20 adjuster nut will move .050".
c. Next, divide .050" divide by 4 to calculate the distance for a quarter-turn of theadjuster nut (.050" / 4 = .0125").
d. For a 3/8 x 24 adjuster nut, the calculations are:1" / 24 TPI = .042" per full turn and .042" / 4 = .0105" per quarter-turn.e. Use the chart below to determine how many quarter-turns to tighten theadjuster nut after Zero-lash:

Cast Iron block and Cast Iron Head = .020" - .025"
Cast Iron block and Aluminum Head = .030" - .035"
Aluminum block and Aluminum Head = .045" - .050"

5. Repeat these adjustments for each cylinder running through the firing order.

EDIT: On the 463, I am running the 713 VooDoo 243/251 HR, so it will see 6500 RPM+

.

[69 Limelight]

HWTSTR455, unless my math is off you do not follow the John Callies instructions. For a cast block/aluminum head the instructions above call for .030-.035 preload. By my calculations 3/4 turn on a 7/16 x 20 stud/adjusting nut would be .0375 plus approximately .003125-.00625 for tightening the set screw gives .040625-.04375 so .010 + more than instructions call for. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by 69 Limelight

HWTSTR455, unless my math is off you do not follow the John Callies instructions. For a cast block/aluminum head the instructions above call for .030-.035 preload. By my calculations 3/4 turn on a 7/16 x 20 stud/adjusting nut would be .0375 plus approximately .003125-.00625 for tightening the set screw gives .040625-.04375 so .010 + more than instructions call for. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Yup, that's correct, and why I was agreeing with JLMounce, slightly more than what is recommended by the instructions. I was guess-timating in the .040 range. So more like over by @ .005. (.010 over would be .0475)

The instructions as you see leave a range open between .035-.045, sooo...


.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

That's pretty much what I do too, with aluminum heads/iron block. I think I go 3/4, then take up slack on the set screw, and go about a 1/16th - 1/8th of a turn.

One set I have is a Howards branded Morel, and the other a Lunati branded Morel. I just bought 2 more sets for 2 new engines, both sets were branded Lunati. One engine ran on a test stand for a reasonable time, varying RPM, the other should be started in the next couple months.

I follow the John Callies instructions, which is the Morel instruction, with one exception. I soak them in solvent, dry, then soak them in oil. I've heard ATF is fine to soak them in too. I refuse to not clean them, regardless of the recommendation.

Here are the John C. instructions:


Page 1
Installing and Adjusting Morel Hydraulic Lifters:
1. Do not wash in any solvent. Wipe the parts off with a lint free towel.
2. Use 10W30 oil and lube the O.D. of the body and wheel.
3. Make sure the lifter-to-bore clearance on cast iron blocks is: .0015” - .0017”. On aluminum blocks that oil the lifter (LS Series), the clearance is: .0014” - .0016”. Both of these measurements are at 70 Deg F. The aluminum block will have a higher rate of expansion and that is why the clearance is tighter.

Adjusting the Zero-lash setting of the Lifter:
1. I always like using the firing order to set the valves. Put the engine on #1 cylinder.
2. What we want is the int. and ex. to be on the base circle of the camshaft.
3. Adjust the rocker until the push rod just starts to get tight while taking the pushrod and rolling it between your thumb and finger. Once you feel drag, this is what we call Zero-lash.
4. You are now ready to tighten down on the adjuster using the following method:
a. It is important to know the thread pitch, in threads per inch, of the adjuster nut, because one complete turn of the nut will move a distance of one complete thread. Therefore, verify the thread pitch of the adjuster nut, because racing rocker manufacturers use different nut sizes and thread pitches.
b. If your adjuster nut is 7/16 x 20 threads per inch, then divide 1 inch by 20threads per inch. One complete turn down on a 7/16 by 20 adjuster nut will move .050".
c. Next, divide .050" divide by 4 to calculate the distance for a quarter-turn of theadjuster nut (.050" / 4 = .0125").
d. For a 3/8 x 24 adjuster nut, the calculations are:1" / 24 TPI = .042" per full turn and .042" / 4 = .0105" per quarter-turn.e. Use the chart below to determine how many quarter-turns to tighten theadjuster nut after Zero-lash:

Cast Iron block and Cast Iron Head = .020" - .025"
Cast Iron block and Aluminum Head = .030" - .035"
Aluminum block and Aluminum Head = .045" - .050"

5. Repeat these adjustments for each cylinder running through the firing order.

EDIT: On the 463, I am running the 713 VooDoo 243/251 HR, so it will see 6500 RPM+

.

What heads / morels?

[HWYSTR455]

Butler 315cfm round port E-heads, and the Lunati 72334 HR lifters.

.