#41  
Old 07-02-2021, 10:30 PM
Dragncar Dragncar is offline
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[QUOTE=blueghoast;6261309]
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Originally Posted by blueghoast View Post



The E-Heads I bought new 2.19x5.3ish 1.77x5.245 I think.Fearra valves.
New Pac springs also around $275.00 plus the $1407 for the heads and
It was a $1000.00 for the porting Longer rocker studs I had the titaniam
Retainers
, Ross pistons pins and rings already had, Eagle Rods from PY member
Turned N-crank Victor intake with 1050 Dom and carb spacer. 83-91 jets
Solid Roller cam and lifters, Cam from a guy at Norwalk 626 lift 274-279dur
@50 60-pound oil pump with deep sump pan 12:98:1 comp.
Both motors have MSD distributors and same 2-inch headers 3.1/2 colecter
I believe thats it other tenn the total prices.

GT.
This engine right here. Was it pump gas at 12.98 -1 CR ? The highest CR of any pump gas Pontiac I know of was 12.3 -1 and it had a very specific cam and aluminum rods.
Don't think any pump gas Pontiac will live long or make the power it should at 13-1 . Certainly not without the exact cam it needs and steel rods do not help.
Was this a E-85 engine ? If the heads were close there is some reason this engine did not make more power than your new SM engine is it had the right cam and fuel in it. Its over 1.5 more static CR. Significant enough you should see it.

  #42  
Old 07-02-2021, 11:39 PM
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Its OK to be a smart ass, I know how I come off sometimes. Some have a problem with me giving a opinion and that's fine. My point is you gave your opinion too. Yes you did base it on a build you have done. Your build is admittedly not a high end build, some used parts. Nothing wrong with that.

Thing is, if you can not make 600+ HP on pump gas(E85, 13-1, not really) .264 roller cam with 318cfm heads something is wrong. I mean, its going to unless the cam is 8 deg retarded.(buddys engine)
Your engine has two fours on a tunnel, 1400 cfm of carb with a .275 @ .050 cam and 11.37-1 CR. Its simply going to make 600+ HP unless something is very wrong. You did port them yourself, saving money.
Nothing wrong at all with the power you are making. Just not a high end enough build to give a strong "opinion" as to these Chinese heads are better than our USA Edelbrocks.
The 461 I am building at this moment will not see a pump. It will see weight, ET and MPH and go from there. No used parts, well thought out Sparred little expense. Cam I am using made 815 and 865 HP on pump gas 535 and 505 engines. And will post what it does when ironed out and folks can say what they want no problem.
To me I would need to see a "wow" engine before I would think those Speedmasters are any better. Have not yet I need that before I throw my country under the bus on this.
If that cam is from who I think. We are still waiting for him to post a dyno which shows those HP numbers. I mean a dyno sheet where all of the numbers add up.

Stan

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  #43  
Old 07-02-2021, 11:47 PM
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[QUOTE=Dragncar;6261800]
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Originally Posted by blueghoast View Post

This engine right here. Was it pump gas at 11.98 -1 CR ? The highest CR of any pump gas Pontiac I know of was 12.3 -1 and it had a very specific cam and aluminum rods.
Don't think any pump gas Pontiac will live long or make the power it should at 13-1 . Certainly not without the exact cam it needs and steel rods do not help.
Was this a E-85 engine ? If the heads were close there is some reason this engine did not make more power than your new SM engine is it had the right cam and fuel in it. Its over 1.5 more static CR. Significant enough you should see it.
Something I just noticed, The comp is 11:98:1 sorry bought dat.
You need to look at a set of the SM heads and evaluate them compared
To the E-Heads. There truly is a lot more meat in them for more air.
The valves and the seat are top quality they come with tall valves And
My E-Heads had one seat on the intake that far from being seated in place.
Had to take care of that. That could happen to any manufactuier though.
Can't remove all the push rod bulge in the E-Head but did with the SM's.
Point is before you drag them in the dirt take a good look at them
before you judge them, They really are a decent head I mean if I can
make power with less comp, smaller valves and a little less flow and just
two day's of port work and I'm no proffessional then I'm impresed by it.
So take a look and compair your self before you judge them.
I know sometime soon a good porter will do a set and maybe then will
know just what the potential they can make or not.

GT

  #44  
Old 07-03-2021, 12:02 AM
opeliac opeliac is offline
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Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post
I think its safe to say no Speedmaster head will ever flow more and make more NA power than those E heads.
Unless someone wants to go through the time and expense of welding them up and re drilling pushrod holes. The Ti valves (can SM take 2.25 ") the epoxy, the max effort. Not happening.
Maybe I am wrong but I doubt we will ever see a Barton, Marcella or Gabby Speedmaster max effort head. I would trust their opinions on how much power, how good those heads are.
Barton, Marcella, and Gabby put the effort into the eheads because there really wasnt much of a better choice...With Tigers, and all of the billet pieces available now, i'd say most have shifted their efforts.

  #45  
Old 07-03-2021, 12:22 AM
PontiacJim1959 PontiacJim1959 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post
Its OK to be a smart ass, I know how I come off sometimes. Some have a problem with me giving a opinion and that's fine. My point is you gave your opinion too. Yes you did base it on a build you have done. Your build is admittedly not a high end build, some used parts. Nothing wrong with that.

Thing is, if you can not make 600+ HP on pump gas(E85, 13-1, not really) .264 roller cam with 318cfm heads something is wrong. I mean, its going to unless the cam is 8 deg retarded.(buddys engine)
Your engine has two fours on a tunnel, 1400 cfm of carb with a .275 @ .050 cam and 11.37-1 CR. Its simply going to make 600+ HP unless something is very wrong. You did port them yourself, saving money.
Nothing wrong at all with the power you are making. Just not a high end enough build to give a strong "opinion" as to these Chinese heads are better than our USA Edelbrocks.
The 461 I am building at this moment will not see a pump. It will see weight, ET and MPH and go from there. No used parts, well thought out Sparred little expense. Cam I am using made 815 and 865 HP on pump gas 535 and 505 engines. And will post what it does when ironed out and folks can say what they want no problem.
To me I would need to see a "wow" engine before I would think those Speedmasters are any better. Have not yet I need that before I throw my country under the bus on this.
Where is the STFU emogee? I am still looking for the post where the OP said he was building an all out high end race engine and sparing no expense? Hmmm. I have a set of the "Chinese" heads and they look great. Far cheaper than the out of the box E-heads and my purchase is simply for use on a street car, not a race engine.

Are these heads perfect out of the box? Are any of them? Any assembled aftermarket head should be broken down and examined. One reason I got the bare heads as I will prep/assemble them to my specs. Could they use some clean up port work? I think that depends on the user and his/her intent on the use of the heads. Stock cast iron heads can use some clean up port work to greatly improve them, but does everyone do that?

I did do a web search to see how many complaints and bad reviews there were on the Speedmaster heads - Pontiac and others. Really didn't find anything that would cause these heads to fall into the "junk" list or "don't waste your money." If they were crap, the complaints would be all over the assorted forums and no one would be buying them. But to the contrary, they got good overall reviews that did point out that these heads all could use some bowl clean-up/blending which was easily done with a sanding roll and not a lot of time involved.

But once again, it is so easy to arm chair your opinion and sound like an expert on heads when you have not even purchased, let alone worked with, a set of Speedmaster heads. When you actually purchase a set, do all your fancy work to them (or pay someone else as I am sure you do), and provide real world dyno numbers either supporting or negating their use on the ultimate build, otherwise STFU.

Thank you to the OP for sharing. Very encouraging and others who buy American will also be thanking you because it'll bring the cost down of those who had thought they had the market share on aftermarket aluminum Pontiac heads and were over pricing them.

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  #46  
Old 07-03-2021, 08:00 AM
Dragncar Dragncar is offline
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Originally Posted by opeliac View Post
Barton, Marcella, and Gabby put the effort into the eheads because there really wasnt much of a better choice...With Tigers, and all of the billet pieces available now, i'd say most have shifted their efforts.
I get it. Not much point in a max effort E or SM head these days. I would be interested in the bowl area of the SM heads. The Gabby heads I have, right under the seat the are is huge. It looks bigger than the valve . Kind of freaky looking.
I know the SM heads are lighter than the E heads. The material has to come from somewhere.
The High Ports seem heavy, thick. I can understand why they have been taken to 462 cfm.

  #47  
Old 07-03-2021, 08:09 AM
Dragncar Dragncar is offline
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[QUOTE=PontiacJim1959;6261816]Where is the STFU emogee? I am still looking for the post where the OP said he was building an all out high end race engine and sparing no expense? Hmmm. I have a set of the "Chinese" heads and they look great. Far cheaper than the out of the box E-heads and my purchase is simply for use on a street car, not a race engine.

Are these heads perfect out of the box? Are any of them? Any assembled aftermarket head should be broken down and examined. One reason I got the bare heads as I will prep/assemble them to my specs. Could they use some clean up port work? I think that depends on the user and his/her intent on the use of the heads. Stock cast iron heads can use some clean up port work to greatly improve them, but does everyone do that?

I did do a web search to see how many complaints and bad reviews there were on the Speedmaster heads - Pontiac and others. Really didn't find anything that would cause these heads to fall into the "junk" list or "don't waste your money." If they were crap, the complaints would be all over the assorted forums and no one would be buying them. But to the contrary, they got good overall reviews that did point out that these heads all could use some bowl clean-up/blending which was easily done with a sanding roll and not a lot of time involved.

But once again, it is so easy to arm chair your opinion and sound like an expert on heads when you have not even purchased, let alone worked with, a set of Speedmaster heads. When you actually purchase a set, do all your fancy work to them (or pay someone else as I am sure you do), and provide real world dyno numbers either supporting or negating their use on the ultimate build, otherwise STFU.

Thank you to the OP for sharing. Very encouraging and others who buy American will also be thanking you because it'll bring the cost down of those who had thought they had the market share on aftermarket aluminum Pontiac heads and were over pricing them.[/QUOTE

Emoji.s are for girls.

Chi Com heads TTFMFER !
The OP did say the quality was better than E heads. Cheap 400 $ heads better than the beast heads from the best made in America company ??
That will be the day.
I hope you build turns out great.

  #48  
Old 07-03-2021, 08:13 AM
Dragncar Dragncar is offline
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[QUOTE=blueghoast;6261812]
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Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post

Something I just noticed, The comp is 11:98:1 sorry bought dat.
You need to look at a set of the SM heads and evaluate them compared
To the E-Heads. There truly is a lot more meat in them for more air.
The valves and the seat are top quality they come with tall valves And
My E-Heads had one seat on the intake that far from being seated in place.
Had to take care of that. That could happen to any manufactuier though.
Can't remove all the push rod bulge in the E-Head but did with the SM's.
Point is before you drag them in the dirt take a good look at them
before you judge them, They really are a decent head I mean if I can
make power with less comp, smaller valves and a little less flow and just
two day's of port work and I'm no proffessional then I'm impresed by it.
So take a look and compair your self before you judge them.
I know sometime soon a good porter will do a set and maybe then will
know just what the potential they can make or not.

GT
What was the flow of the 2 heads ? Did yours have that little lip inside the intake port ? Seems like some have it and some don't. How big a valve can you fit in the SM head
E head will take a 2.25 and a High Port will take a 2.30".

  #49  
Old 07-03-2021, 01:24 PM
PontiacJim1959 PontiacJim1959 is offline
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[QUOTE=Dragncar;6261834]
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Originally Posted by blueghoast View Post

What was the flow of the 2 heads ? Did yours have that little lip inside the intake port ? Seems like some have it and some don't. How big a valve can you fit in the SM head
E head will take a 2.25 and a High Port will take a 2.30".
Iron heads can take a 2.19" valves and set class records. What is your point? Oh, you are in the "Bigger is Better" group of thinkers. Bet you drive that big sky high 4-wheel drive pickup and intimidate the drivers on the road because you have that small peni........... I digress.

You are one of those guys who baffles people with BS rather than dazzle them with brilliance. Most unfamiliar with Pontiacs, or any engine build, or the beginner who simply likes GTO's, might be swallowing your BS and taking your side ONLY because they don't have the knowledge/experience/info on the best way to build a strong HP/TQ engine whether it be street or race. But what those in the know who know about building an engine, Pontiac or otherwise, understand that a winning/solid engine is more about part matching and not singling out or focusing on 1 piece and forgetting about the others. So what, if a set of heads flow 400CFM's but then you have an intake that flows 240CFM, or you have a .700" lift roller cam and stock resized cast iron rods. Then there is matching all this to the drivetrain and planting to the pavement. It is not about the biggest budget, best selected parts on the market, and slapping it together........it is about selecting parts that work together so you don't have a turd of an engine.

Buy a set of SM heads and YOU tell us - then you can answer all these question and more and have facts in hand and not assumptions. Then once you have answered these questions, do some R&D and install them with YOUR assumed best parts build with matching cam and let's see how they perform. It would be a small investment on your behalf to know the truth an then you will really have a leg to stand on IF they really suck. I'll watch and follow your 12-part YouTube video.

I looked on YouTube hoping to find your All-American killer drag car and was disappointed. Would like you to point me to your car in action and your posted 1/4 mile times on the winners billboard? It may be up there, and used your screen name to do the search, but maybe you go by another screen name on YouTube?

  #50  
Old 07-03-2021, 02:05 PM
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Most of the time bigger is better, you also get what you pay for.


GTO George

  #51  
Old 07-03-2021, 02:13 PM
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Mike Davis Mike Davis is offline
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Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post
The 461 I am building at this moment will not see a pump. It will see weight, ET and MPH and go from there. No used parts, well thought out Sparred little expense. Cam I am using made 815 and 865 HP on pump gas 535 and 505 engines. And will post what it does when ironed out and folks can say what they want no problem.
To me I would need to see a "wow" engine before I would think those Speedmasters are any better. Have not yet I need that before I throw my country under the bus on this.
If a 535 or 505 did not make at least those numbers I would be pissed.
The OP has a running engine and gave his results.
I have 3 sets of E heads and 2 sets of SM heads. I also do my own work, the SM heads are a decent head for a street/strip car.
You keep talking about these engines you are gonna build etc and keep throwing peoples names out there like you break bread with them daily.
How about instead of slamming everyone's build you spend the energy putting yours together and show us your Real World Experiences.

In fact, I will haul my home built, stock suspension, stock block, factory crank, Carter AFB fed 3750LB full interior street car all the way to Vegas for a match race with your light weight gutted 69 race car for $$$.

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  #52  
Old 07-03-2021, 02:54 PM
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dragracerx2813 dragracerx2813 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Davis View Post
If a 535 or 505 did not make at least those numbers I would be pissed.
The OP has a running engine and gave his results.
I have 3 sets of E heads and 2 sets of SM heads. I also do my own work, the SM heads are a decent head for a street/strip car.
You keep talking about these engines you are gonna build etc and keep throwing peoples names out there like you break bread with them daily.
How about instead of slamming everyone's build you spend the energy putting yours together and show us your Real World Experiences.

In fact, I will haul my home built, stock suspension, stock block, factory crank, Carter AFB fed 3750LB full interior street car all the way to Vegas for a match race with your light weight gutted 69 race car for $$$.
It will never happen!

  #53  
Old 07-03-2021, 03:58 PM
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[QUOTE=Dragncar;6261834]
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueghoast View Post

What was the flow of the 2 heads ? Did yours have that little lip inside the intake port ? Seems like some have it and some don't. How big a valve can you fit in the SM head
E head will take a 2.25 and a High Port will take a 2.30".
Just clarify, both hp and e-heads have same valve spacing, so physical the same size valves will fit both heads.

  #54  
Old 07-03-2021, 06:06 PM
Dragncar Dragncar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Davis View Post
If a 535 or 505 did not make at least those numbers I would be pissed.
The OP has a running engine and gave his results.
I have 3 sets of E heads and 2 sets of SM heads. I also do my own work, the SM heads are a decent head for a street/strip car.
You keep talking about these engines you are gonna build etc and keep throwing peoples names out there like you break bread with them daily.
How about instead of slamming everyone's build you spend the energy putting yours together and show us your Real World Experiences.

In fact, I will haul my home built, stock suspension, stock block, factory crank, Carter AFB fed 3750LB full interior street car all the way to Vegas for a match race with your light weight gutted 69 race car for $$$.
I am sure they are a decent street head for a "street car". Better head, better quality than a E head, thats the problem have. The very thing that started the whole real power deal for every single one of us. A industry stealing, copied, no R&D Chi Com head.
You should take offense to it too. But you jump all over them like its a good thing.
I am going to a rodeo, bull riding 4th of FREAKING JULY celebration with big fireworks today. "Merica" baby.
Stop it with you will tow to Vegas to race. No you won't.
BTW, few 505s have been past 860. Most have missed so save it.

  #55  
Old 07-03-2021, 06:13 PM
Dragncar Dragncar is offline
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[QUOTE=slowbird;6261896]
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Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post

Just clarify, both hp and e-heads have same valve spacing, so physical the same size valves will fit both heads.
Has anyone got a 2.30 valve in a E head ?

  #56  
Old 07-03-2021, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
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Stop it with you will tow to Vegas to race. No you won't.
BTW, few 505s have been past 860. Most have missed so save it.
Apparently you don't know me. I put 15k+ miles a year on a rig just towing to the races.

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  #57  
Old 07-03-2021, 08:14 PM
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[QUOTE=Dragncar;6261921]
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Originally Posted by slowbird View Post

Has anyone got a 2.30 valve in a E head ?
Doesn't matter if someone has, that doesn't change the fact that both heads have same spacing. But yes people have definitely ran bigger than 2.25 in e-heads

  #58  
Old 07-03-2021, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Stan Weiss View Post
If that cam is from who I think. We are still waiting for him to post a dyno which shows those HP numbers. I mean a dyno sheet where all of the numbers add up.

Stan
He can show you one of my sheets and claim it's his. Does that count? Lol

  #59  
Old 07-04-2021, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post
I am sure they are a decent street head for a "street car". Better head, better quality than a E head, thats the problem have. The very thing that started the whole real power deal for every single one of us. A industry stealing, copied, no R&D Chi Com head.
You should take offense to it too. But you jump all over them like its a good thing.
I am going to a rodeo, bull riding 4th of FREAKING JULY celebration with big fireworks today. "Merica" baby.
Stop it with you will tow to Vegas to race. No you won't.
BTW, few 505s have been past 860. Most have missed so save it.
Maybe you need to reread the subject line. It doesn’t say anything about wanting a opinion. It say results.

  #60  
Old 07-04-2021, 12:14 PM
Dragncar Dragncar is offline
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[QUOTE=slowbird;6261939]
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Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post

Doesn't matter if someone has, that doesn't change the fact that both heads have same spacing. But yes people have definitely ran bigger than 2.25 in e-heads
The Gabby 400cfm E heads had 2.25, so did Brandywines. And Mikes.

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