#1  
Old 01-21-2019, 10:40 PM
64speed's Avatar
64speed 64speed is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Westminster S.C.
Posts: 6,025
Default Engine oil coolers and longevity

Wondering if an engine oil cooler is worth the investment for engine longevity. Also those of you running them how do you keep the rubber hose off the headers?

__________________
468/TKO600 Ford thru bolt equipped 64 Tempest Custom. Custom Nocturne Blue with black interior.
  #2  
Old 01-21-2019, 11:28 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Liberty Hill, Tx. (Austin)
Posts: 10,385
Default

https://www.holley.com/brands/earls/...%20&%20Support


https://www.holley.com/brands/earls/...oling_systems/

Lots of propaganda out there


https://www.carthrottle.com/post/the...-it-seriously/
.

__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #3  
Old 01-22-2019, 02:59 AM
ta man ta man is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Clinton,Ontario,Canada
Posts: 5,348
Default

If one was building a car that was going to see high rpms for long lengths of time it would be a good idea. For your average hobby car not worth the trouble or even needed.
For example my current engine is hardblocked..filled to the bottom of the waterpump holes. My biggest concern with the shortblock was how to control oil temperatures. I was ready to dive into oil coolers,remote filters,thermostats and the lines and fitting. Someone suggested to just see what it does for oil temps. As far as normal driving my oil temps normally sit at 210, around town they creep up once in a while to 240 and also down the highway at higher revs in the 3000rpm range they will creep up to 240. Which from what I understand with synthetic oil shouldn't be an issue.
What is interesting with running a oil temp gauge you really see when your engine is truly warmed up and it takes a while for oil temps to get to 210.

__________________

466 Mike Voycey shortblock, 310cfm SD KRE heads, SD "OF 2.0 cam", torker 2
373 gears 3200 Continental Convertor
best et 10.679/127.5/1.533 60ft
308 gears best et 10.76/125.64/1.5471
  #4  
Old 01-22-2019, 08:06 AM
krisr's Avatar
krisr krisr is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sydney, OZ
Posts: 1,433
Default

I've data-logged my motor substantially, i've got engine oil temp as one of my inputs to the EFI computer. Before hardblocking the engine the oil would sit at about 100*C (212*F) on local street driving, after an extended drive on the freeway, would creep up to about 110-115*C (230-240*F) then cool back down when the rpm dropped. After hardblocking the temps rose about 20*C everywhere, so I put an oil thermostat (85*C) and an oil cooler on the car, now the oil is at basically 95*C-105*C everywhere.

IMO, unless you're grout filling the block, move along, nothing to see here. You want the oil to get up to temperature otherwise you'll be changing it every 3000miles.

__________________
'71 Holden HQ Monaro - 3850lbs race weight, 400c/i - 11.4 @ 120
'66 Pontiac GTO - 389, 4 speed street cruiser
  #5  
Old 01-22-2019, 02:15 PM
HWYSTR455's Avatar
HWYSTR455 HWYSTR455 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 14,658
Default

I ran a block filled to the freeze plugs for 90k miles on the street, abusively, and many many long trips, never saw over 300F degrees. Use quality name-brand oil, change it on regular intervals, and you are good.

If you're concerned about it, you can help by using a larger capacity oil pan. That should be good for a few degrees.

As for lines, routing, and headers, the best way to plumb is tap the block itself, and don't use an adapter. Then use pipe threaded fittings in the block. That's as close as you're going to get with clearance.

When you go to remote filter/cooler setup, there are other concerns, such as potential for leaks, hose replacement intervals, line size impact on flow/psi/etc, drainback/refill time, bypass, and filter types to use. = Headache for little to no gain.

.

__________________
.

1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
  #6  
Old 01-23-2019, 09:42 PM
TedRamAirII TedRamAirII is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Ocala, Florida
Posts: 2,755
Default

I think you WANT the oil to get at least over 220f to boil off any water. As long as you keep it under 250f I think you are fine.

__________________
1968 Firebird 400 RAII M21, 3.31 12 bolt, Mayfair Maize.
1977 Trans Am W72 400, TH350, 3.23 T Top

Everyone you will ever meet knows something you don't.
Bill Nye.
  #7  
Old 01-23-2019, 10:41 PM
JLMounce JLMounce is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Greeley, Colorado
Posts: 3,679
Send a message via AIM to JLMounce
Default

FWIW, I used to do track events in my C6 corvettes and would watch oil temps. The computer will not through the engine into limp due to oil temps until they reach about 305 degrees. I've seen as high as 300 on a 100+ degree day about 15 minutes into a 20 minute session on that car. Base C6, no oil cooler.

Now that type of situation on a large bearing pontiac engine is going to create more heat, but my broader point is that the engine protection strategy of the GM as delivered computer doesn't kick in until above 300 degrees for the oil they recommend (mobile 10/30). So normalized temps in the low 200's are fine. If you're consistently seeing temps at or about 250 you just want to change the oil at earlier intervals.

My example above would be fairly extreme for most of us here with out cars, but it's understood that if you're at a track event like that, it gets a fresh fill before and after the event.

__________________
-Jason
1969 Pontiac Firebird
  #8  
Old 01-23-2019, 11:29 PM
lust4speed's Avatar
lust4speed lust4speed is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Yucaipa, SoCal
Posts: 8,684
Default

Keeping the oil warm (over 212°) and the coolant cool is going to produce a happy engine. I still have an oil cooler on the drag car, but removed the oil coolers from the street cars. During the cooler weather the oil just wasn't getting warm enough to purge the moisture.

The other thing I found out was you stick a monster engine oil cooler along with a monster trans cooler, and an A/C condenser in front of your radiator and they do a pretty good job of stifling airflow. Coolant temps dropped 20° by eliminating the oil cooler and going to a smaller better suited trans cooler, and engine oil temps didn't go up that much.

__________________
Mick Batson
1967 original owner Tyro Blue/black top 4-speed HO GTO with all the original parts stored safely away -- 1965 2+2 survivor AC auto -- 1965 Catalina Safari Wagon in progress.
  #9  
Old 01-24-2019, 02:02 AM
hgerhardt's Avatar
hgerhardt hgerhardt is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: CA
Posts: 654
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lust4speed View Post
Keeping the oil warm (over 212°) and the coolant cool is going to produce a happy engine.... During the cooler weather the oil just wasn't getting warm enough to purge the moisture.....
And that's why I love oil-to-water coolers like they used on 4th gen TA's with manual trans and C4 Corvettes.

On a cold start, the water heats faster than the oil which causes the cooler to actually warm the oil. After warmup, it's the opposite situation.

Below is the setup on my '66 GTO. It's a C4 Corvette unit (made by Modine) attached to a 90deg adapter via a simple adapter plate on a Firebird long-branch adapter. The hoses connect to the heater nipple on the RH head (although mine takes water from both heads) and then to the heater core. The switch (used to) control the electric fuel pump and also turn on an oil pressure idiot light (with rally gauges and solid rollers, you can't hear/easily notice if there's low oil pressure). This cooler also allows (forces?) the use of SBC oil filters. Unfortunately, with Doug's headers I have to use a shorter filter than that PF-35L (it worked well with H-O Racing's Tri-Y headers). If you want a CAD file of the adapter plate, shoot me a PM.


  #10  
Old 01-24-2019, 11:17 AM
track73 track73 is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Munster In
Posts: 1,504
Default

Conventional oil should be changed if the temp gets over 270 degrees. Most oil temps are about 20 or so above water temps. At a NASCAR race there was a car that finished the race when was a problem with an oil cooler. The oil got so hot the driver sustained burns on his back (where the oil tank sits). The synthetic oil got so hot it didn't register on the temp gauge.

__________________
1979 Trans Am WS-6 .030 455 zero decked
flat pistons
96 heads with SS valves
041 cam with Rhoads lifters 1.65 rockers
RPM rods
800 Cliffs Q Jet on Holley Street Dominator
ST-10 4 speed (3.42 first)
w 2.73 rear gear

__________________________________________________ _______________________________

469th TFS Korat Thailand 1968-69 F-4E Muzzle 2
  #11  
Old 01-24-2019, 04:26 PM
421mike 421mike is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Gardnerville Nevada
Posts: 153
Send a message via Yahoo to 421mike
Default oil temps

I drove my 421 SD on the street with an 8 quart SD pan with only 7 quarts and a 390 rear end. spinning it up there on the freeway. Never got over 230 on the oil and about 190 on the engine. Ran Pennzoil 30w. FWIW

  #12  
Old 01-24-2019, 05:22 PM
STEELCITYFIREBIRD's Avatar
STEELCITYFIREBIRD STEELCITYFIREBIRD is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: "STEELER COUNTRY"
Posts: 2,950
Default

IMHO Not necessary except for extreme duty,or extended RPM, applications.
Monitor oil temp after in service and determine if use necessitates.
Coolers can and will cause drop in oil volume. You need a pump that is up to the task you demand from it.
KIS

Good tips on minimum oi temp given!!

  #13  
Old 01-24-2019, 05:53 PM
Skip Fix's Avatar
Skip Fix Skip Fix is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Katy,TX USA
Posts: 20,541
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hgerhardt View Post
And that's why I love oil-to-water coolers like they used on 4th gen TA's with manual trans and C4 Corvettes.

On a cold start, the water heats faster than the oil which causes the cooler to actually warm the oil. After warmup, it's the opposite situation.

Below is the setup on my '66 GTO. It's a C4 Corvette unit (made by Modine) attached to a 90deg adapter via a simple adapter plate on a Firebird long-branch adapter. The hoses connect to the heater nipple on the RH head (although mine takes water from both heads) and then to the heater core. The switch (used to) control the electric fuel pump and also turn on an oil pressure idiot light (with rally gauges and solid rollers, you can't hear/easily notice if there's low oil pressure). This cooler also allows (forces?) the use of SBC oil filters. Unfortunately, with Doug's headers I have to use a shorter filter than that PF-35L (it worked well with H-O Racing's Tri-Y headers). If you want a CAD file of the adapter plate, shoot me a PM.

The late 90s Chevy trucks with a towing package had a similar oil cooler. At least my 97 sure does.

__________________
Skip Fix
1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
  #14  
Old 01-24-2019, 05:55 PM
tom s tom s is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: long beach ca usa
Posts: 18,764
Default

I have never looked at oil temps on any street engine.Drove 2 short fill pontiacs on the street and just played dumb and ran 10-30 mobil 1.The engines are in other cars and I have never been told of a issue.FWIW,Tom

  #15  
Old 01-24-2019, 07:11 PM
JLMounce JLMounce is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Greeley, Colorado
Posts: 3,679
Send a message via AIM to JLMounce
Default

I don't watch it in mine either. My car gets driven longish distances at rpms exceeding 3000, plus beat on quite a bit. I change the oil every spring and it's always clean and in otherwise good condition. If I had to guess it probably runs 230ish on a hot day in the summer when the car runs about 195 on the coolant temp.

__________________
-Jason
1969 Pontiac Firebird
  #16  
Old 02-13-2019, 12:27 PM
Nicks67GTO Nicks67GTO is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Waterloo, Ia
Posts: 2,895
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hgerhardt View Post
And that's why I love oil-to-water coolers like they used on 4th gen TA's with manual trans and C4 Corvettes.



On a cold start, the water heats faster than the oil which causes the cooler to actually warm the oil. After warmup, it's the opposite situation.



Below is the setup on my '66 GTO. It's a C4 Corvette unit (made by Modine) attached to a 90deg adapter via a simple adapter plate on a Firebird long-branch adapter. The hoses connect to the heater nipple on the RH head (although mine takes water from both heads) and then to the heater core. The switch (used to) control the electric fuel pump and also turn on an oil pressure idiot light (with rally gauges and solid rollers, you can't hear/easily notice if there's low oil pressure). This cooler also allows (forces?) the use of SBC oil filters. Unfortunately, with Doug's headers I have to use a shorter filter than that PF-35L (it worked well with H-O Racing's Tri-Y headers). If you want a CAD file of the adapter plate, shoot me a PM.



Tell me more. I'll definately take a copy of that cad file if you're offering. Does this interfere with the bell housing or headers at all? Do you have any pics of it installed? I added an oil temp gauge to my speedhut cluster this year and I'm going to monitor it closely while racing. I ran a hill climb with my 67 gto last year where revs were 4-6500 rpm for a lot of it and I think my oil was getting hot.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

__________________


-1967 GTO HO Restomod. PKMM 433ci, SilverSport T56 Magnum 6spd, Moser 9", SC&C and a bunch of other pro touring goodies

- Build Thread
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...615847&page=23
  #17  
Old 02-13-2019, 01:01 PM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,794
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Fix View Post
The late 90s Chevy trucks with a towing package had a similar oil cooler. At least my 97 sure does.
Yep Skip, GM had it in the 80's too. My 88 Iroc Z 350 TPI had one just like that.

  #18  
Old 02-14-2019, 12:39 AM
bendutro bendutro is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 172
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicks67GTO View Post
I ran a hill climb with my 67 gto last year where revs were 4-6500 rpm for a lot of it and I think my oil was getting hot.
Was pressure dropping? Are you running 3" or 3.25" mains? I ask because I talked to Don Stellhorn about his issues and it sounded like sustained rpm and high bearing speeds resulted in spun bearings more than once so he hit the LS button and didn't look back.

I'm building mine for similar duty, hope to run into you one of these days once she's finished!

  #19  
Old 02-14-2019, 12:48 AM
Nicks67GTO Nicks67GTO is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Waterloo, Ia
Posts: 2,895
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bendutro View Post
Was pressure dropping? Are you running 3" or 3.25" mains? I ask because I talked to Don Stellhorn about his issues and it sounded like sustained rpm and high bearing speeds resulted in spun bearings more than once so he hit the LS button and didn't look back.



I'm building mine for similar duty, hope to run into you one of these days once she's finished!
3" main, 4" stroke. The idle oil pressure was down 5-7 lbs over hot idle after the run. Shut it down back in the paddock and let it cool down and it was no big deal. Pressure was back to normal. Then I drove it home 3.5 hrs. No issues. Just seemed like it got warm and thin.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

__________________


-1967 GTO HO Restomod. PKMM 433ci, SilverSport T56 Magnum 6spd, Moser 9", SC&C and a bunch of other pro touring goodies

- Build Thread
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...615847&page=23
  #20  
Old 02-14-2019, 10:37 AM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,794
Default

That doesn't seem like a big drop in hot pressure after a hard run to me Nick.

You could likely and very simply just change oil brand or viscosity of the oil and see those minor pressure differences change. 5-7 lbs. change when hot wouldn't bother me, as long as your hot idle pressure isn't ridiculously low to begin with.

I used to run VR1 20-50, and I would see hot idle pressure drops that you mention just from a 20 mile highway cruise at 3,000 rpm, and would consider that pretty normal. Switched to Amsoil 20-50 many years ago and haven't really noticed any pressure drop hot or cold which leads me to believe (and it's been mentioned to me before) that this oil is likely holding it's viscosity better.

Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:53 AM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017