[rare4k]

Another one with 355

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[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by padgett

...
Were people who saw no purpose in a four speed.

I have heard it several times from people who drove three speed cars back then, that there was nothing wrong with them, and often the gear spacing was more ideal for stoplight racing than a four speed.

Originally Posted by padgett

Suspect it came with a plain T-handle that just said "Hurst"

This is correct.
I have understood that it wasn't unusual for period three speed cars t have not shift pattern indicator, since three speed was what cars had for such a long time - it was the four speed cars which showed the pattern.

[padgett]

True, an H is an H is an H unless it is a Healey 100-4.

OTOH with a four-five-or 6 speed first and reverse are liable to be nearly anywhere. Most confusing for me is a Merc 5 speed which is a conventional H with two more gears off to the right.

Column shift four speeds (i.e. Citroen) are not far off.

[Gary H]

Car's from my home town. Claude Nolan Pontiac-Cadillac. The building is still there. I've owned two 69' Judges that were sold there new.

['ol Pinion head]

Originally Posted by north

Here is a question on this car... why is the Safe-T-Track not HD? All axles 3.36 and numerically higher should be billed out as HD STT at $63.19. You normally only see the $42.13 STT (non-HD) billed out on AC cars which this car doesn't have.

My guess is this car was ordered by an individual buyer who just wanted the car to suit his personal tastes.

If the dealer really wanted a "price leader" Judge to draw buyers I'd think he wouldn't have ordered things like a console or a STT or power brakes. Especially since those few little extras pushed the car over the phycological barrier of $4k.

Most dealers who were ordering any kind of "bait" cars would order power steering but not power brakes because for the vast majority of budget buyers power brakes were really not needed but power steering was a real pain to live without.

To answer your first question, all '70 model PONTIAC 8.2 SAFE-T-TRACK-HD rears were 3.90's & 4.33's. Look at a few original invoice copies, all '70 model HD STT rears will have a retail billing of $63.19 & were either in RA4 cars or were special ordered (often behind an M21) in a base horse or RA3 GTO. A factory installed 4 pinion STT carrier, alone, does not make a HD STT rear. In the '69 & '70 GP Pontiac 8.2's, the mid ratio (typically 3.23) 8.2 STT rears all were of a 4 pinion carrier design, but center hsgs were gray iron & axles were std duty verions. Disassemble & reassemble a bunch of these later Pontiac 8.2 rears & it becomes clear, the PONTIAC 8.2 10-bolt 3.55 SAFE-T-TRACK rears while sharing the N housing & 4 pinion low ratio carrier, do not originally have the HD forged axles used in the HD STT 8.2 rears.

As far as All Tinted Glass option goes it is very very common in the South, SW, & the Plains states. Dealers down this way typically clicked it off more often than not on late '60's & early 70's non AC LeMans & GTO. Much more so than they did just a tinted windshield, which was a much more common process on '64-67 A-bodys in these parts. AM radios ordered in nearly every A-body seemed to be very common option as well. Thats my experience down this way after near 4 decades of extensive boneyarding, & dragging in parts & project cars.

Currently, I have a local customer (original owner) with a '70 GTO. It's almost ready for paint. Like the above '70 Judge it is also a burgundy car, don't see many that color. Originally equipped as WT, M20, manual strg & power drums, AM radio, no console, original rear is 3.55 STT. Odd enough, for it being dealer stock ordered in Zone 20, it only had a tinted front windshield which is what I typically run across further up north. Have sold quite a bit of original glass over the years & it's been a PITA for a long time to source nice uncratched clear back glass for this era of two door Pontiac A-body.

[rare4k]

Some original stuff pics front spring sticker, caliper bolts

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[north]

[QUOTE='ol Pinion head;6264941]To answer your first question, all '70 model PONTIAC 8.2 SAFE-T-TRACK-HD rears were 3.90's & 4.33's. Look at a few original invoice copies, all '70 model HD STT rears will have a retail billing of $63.19 & were either in RA4 cars or were special ordered (often behind an M21) in a base horse or RA3 GTO. A factory installed 4 pinion STT carrier, alone, does not make a HD STT rear. In the '69 & '70 GP Pontiac 8.2's, the mid ratio (typically 3.23) 8.2 STT rears all were of a 4 pinion carrier design, but center hsgs were gray iron & axles were std duty verions. Disassemble & reassemble a bunch of these later Pontiac 8.2 rears & it becomes clear, the PONTIAC 8.2 10-bolt 3.55 SAFE-T-TRACK rears while sharing the N housing & 4 pinion low ratio carrier, do not originally have the HD forged axles used in the HD STT 8.2 rears.

My experience is in 69's, are you saying that in 70 only the 3.90 and the 4.33 were billed as HD STT? For sure in 69 all STT's with 3.36 or numerically higher were 4 pinion and billed out as HD at $63.19.

[Kenth]

1970 GTO H.D. 4-pinion 8.2" Safe-T-Track code 361 were required ordering 3.90 and 4.33 gears.
3.55 gears could be ordered with H.D. 4-pinion Safe-T-Track.
The rest of 1970 GTO 8.2" rearends got 2-pinion gear carriers w or w/o code 361.

AFAIK

[Diego]

Originally Posted by Jerry H.

The way it's equipped sounds like a dealer ordered car for a 'price leader'. Hardly no options.

Is there something in the PHS that shows it was a dealer stock car versus, say, a customer-ordered car?

[north]

I don’t believe so, the invoice prefix segregates cars shipped from zone inventory as opposed to from the factory but either could be for a specific customer or for dealer inventory.

I guess Pontiac didn’t have a reason to need to know if the dealer had a specific buyer in mind when they ordered a car.

[Diego]

I only ask because it would seem odd that a dealer would order a cheap Judge for dealer stock. It's already several hundred dollars over a regular GTO. I can see a regular GTO playing that role.

[unruhjonny]

except, as I have understood it, the Judge was something of an image car with an upgraded engine from the base GTO engine.

[Diego]

except, as I have understood it, the Judge was something of an image car with an upgraded engine from the base GTO engine

Wasn't the GTO the image car? When Pontiac advertised the updated '70, it didn't feature the Judge. Rather, it featured the GTO and announced the 455.

Even on the cover of the performance brochure, we see the Judge playing second fiddle:

Originally Posted by jamesq

Wasn't the original intent of the Judge option to be a low-content competitor to the Road Runner? This one would be true to that mission.

There was about $500 separating the two.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

3.55 Safe-T-Track in 1970 GTO could be STT or STT HD , up to the buyers (or dealers) knowledge.

Have 1970 Invoices reflecting both STT and STT HD in Manual Trans D-Port cars without any axle ratio option (3.55) .

Also have a 1968 3.55 Posi from a 4spd GTO that is not an "N" housing.
Don't know how-why on that one - its just that way