[Jay S]

Originally Posted by 78w72

there are toyotas & other modern cars going to 300-400k on a regular basis & some to 500k-1 million miles... all with normal oil filters & oil change intervals.

i'd be willing to bet that the t/a didnt use any specialty "hot rod" oils or crazy amounts of zddp additive for its FT lifter/cam either.

It would be interesting to know what that trans am had for maintenance. I bought a 72 Dodge Charger with about that many miles from my neighbors. They bought it new, when I bought it the drivetrain was still untouched. Then we broke it on the way home flexing it’s muscles testing it out. That is what would have happened if I bought that TA. LOL.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by 78w72

there are toyotas & other modern cars going to 300-400k on a regular basis & some to 500k-1 million miles... all with normal oil filters & oil change intervals.

i'd be willing to bet that the t/a didnt use any specialty "hot rod" oils or crazy amounts of zddp additive for its FT lifter/cam either.

Back when they made decent oil. But wait, it's a carb so how's that possible?

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Back when they made decent oil. But wait, it's a carb so how's that possible?

partially true on the oil, older oils may have had one specific higher amount additive, zddp. but todays oils & in the last ~10-15 years are much better in every other way than older oils. the base stocks & modern additives make up for a little lower zddp levels.

the article posted in this thread explains there are different types of zddp now & according to valvoline & other brands, the zddp used today is longer lasting & therefore doesnt require as much as the older oils did. along with other modern anti wear additives i would much rather have todays off the shelf oils than ones from the 80-90's & especially the 70s that were sludge prone & couldnt handle heat anywhere near as well as modern oils.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by 78w72

partially true on the oil, older oils may have had one specific higher amount additive, zddp. but todays oils & in the last ~10-15 years are much better in every other way than older oils. the base stocks & modern additives make up for a little lower zddp levels.

the article posted in this thread explains there are different types of zddp now & according to valvoline & other brands, the zddp used today is longer lasting & therefore doesnt require as much as the older oils did. along with other modern anti wear additives i would much rather have todays off the shelf oils than ones from the 80-90's & especially the 70s that were sludge prone & couldnt handle heat anywhere near as well as modern oils.

Those links mention as many as 49 different types of zddp used today, and some of it doesn't play well with others, which goes on to mention that's why extra additives poured in to existing oil isn't always a good idea. Those links also mention how some oils with higher levels of detergents (like diesel) are a bad idea as they counter act the zinc and phosphorous additives that everyone is after. Another one mentions how diesel oil is going through another major change this coming year due to the higher demands of EPA and these newer engine requirements coming out. That could mean better, but it usually doesn't given the history, lol. Time will tell.

There is a ton of good reading in there, I just wonder how many actually bother to read any of it.

[MatthewKlein]

Like many people I used the internet for research to hopefully make an informed decision. When I read plumbing, electrical, boiler etc forums it takes a bit for me to sift through the postings to find credible information. Auto repair is my trade.

People are free to paint their brick house, clean their silver coins, whatever they want. Thankfully we live in the United States and can enjoy classic cars and many other wonderful things.

There are always outliers:
Someone can live to be 100 smoking every day - George Burns comes to mind. But the standard is similar to Yul Brynner.

Some guy somewhere had an engine last 300,000 - 750,000 miles. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. Most don't. These are outliers.

Most antique vehicles will never be driven enough miles for the weight or brand of oil to matter.

I have a small auto repair in a small town. My computer records go back to 2002. Since 2002 our shop has generated 23,954 invoices.

Engines rarely fail but when they do there are 2 ways:
1. Overheating
2. Running out of oil

The engines that fail for lack of oil almost always result from burning the oil. Not from leaking externally. The engines that fail from burning oil ALWAYS burn oil from extended oil change intervals. Sometimes these intervals are Factory Recommended.

For what my 2cents is worth, I will never recommend extending an oil change interval. 2cents isn't worth what it used to be.

Hopefully I can be an asset to the forum

[Formulajones]

Something else that should be pointed out concerning longevity and mileage, may not have much of anything to do with oil or the type of fuel mixer used. I feel it should be looked at more closely because it's not really comparing apples to apples. Just for conversation sake.

It's pretty common knowledge that the majority of the mileage put on these classic cars happened in the first 5-10 years of it's life. Back in the 60's and 70's their weren't a lot of highway systems either. Most of your driving consisted of back roads, lots of stop and go etc... We all know that's more wear and tear on a vehicle than comfy highway cruising, which is the majority of todays driving for most people. Plus we were doing it without overdrive transmissions.

As an example growing up in Cincinnati, dad bought his 69 GTO new. Back then there were no completed highway systems around Cinci. Most of your big towns were this way back then. Most of his driving was back roads. By the late 70's he already racked up 180,000 miles on that car (nearly 20,000 a year). Then continued to drive it more sparingly and shorter distances up into the mid 80's, eventually pushing over 200k when it was eventually restored. Wasn't till the late 70's when I-275 was complete. This is just a different perspective to my point.

I don't really buy into EFI helping engines last longer. Wonder how many have actually looked at an OEM computer tune....They aren't lean and mean, I'll just say that.
Can't even begin to compare that to carbs and try to state they cause engine wear problems. Way too many other things have changed in the last 50 years. Most all your vehicles today, and even as far back as the late 80's, have enjoyed overdrive transmissions and highway cruising at 2000 rpm. Engines just don't see the wear and tear they used to.

I do think oils have also gotten better as you stated. Lots of things at play, least from my perspective anyway.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Those links mention as many as 49 different types of zddp used today, and some of it doesn't play well with others, which goes on to mention that's why extra additives poured in to existing oil isn't always a good idea. Those links also mention how some oils with higher levels of detergents (like diesel) are a bad idea as they counter act the zinc and phosphorous additives that everyone is after. Another one mentions how diesel oil is going through another major change this coming year due to the higher demands of EPA and these newer engine requirements coming out. That could mean better, but it usually doesn't given the history, lol. Time will tell.

There is a ton of good reading in there, I just wonder how many actually bother to read any of it.

i read the article & some of the links within, ive always found oils & the additives used interesting, been a member at BITOG almost as long as here, have read hundreds of VOA & UOA results of different brands as well as many experts there discussing oil & other automotive fluids & additives.

unless i missed something in one of the embedded links from that article posted on page 1, they only mention 2 types of zddp, primary in diesel oils & secondary used along with primary in gasoline oils, they did mention oil techs can vary the combination for different results. but for about 10 years now valvoline's FAQ & talking to techs there, they explain that modern zddp is longer lasting & since its sacrificial not as much is needed as the older type in older oils. that along with modern anti wear additives is the main reason why i get a chuckle from guys thinking they need specialty or race oils with 1500-2000+ ppm of zddp or additives for their broken in stock cams or even "mild" cam/springs for the majority of street cars in this section. but outdated myths die hard.

after reading that article & the upcoming changes to diesel oil, i plan to use up the last of my older rotella t this next oil change (which hasnt caused any problems in 13+ years on one car i use it in) & will start using a good brand of normal oil with ~900 ppm of modern zddp & other additives like i do in my other stock cam pontiac for 25+ years. & i got 200k+ miles out of my prev FT cam daily using cheap but good quality oils like supertech with zero cam/lifter problems, its still running around town today!

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by MatthewKlein

The engines that fail for lack of oil almost always result from burning the oil. Not from leaking externally. The engines that fail from burning oil ALWAYS burn oil from extended oil change intervals. Sometimes these intervals are Factory Recommended.

For what my 2cents is worth, I will never recommend extending an oil change interval. 2cents isn't worth what it used to be.

Hopefully I can be an asset to the forum

This is something I agree with with some caveats.

We don't know what kind of oil or filters these owners have used over the life of the vehicle. They may have been the cheapest crap they could find (which is typical) and not something that would be formulated for extended change intervals. Some of the filters on the market are really horrible too. Owners don't much care if it's a lease or something they'll trade in after 5 years. Lots of grey area there. If you work in a shop you've probably seen all kinds.

I'd never recommend extending any oil change either, without an oil analysis first.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by 78w72

i read the article & some of the links within, ive always found oils & the additives used interesting, been a member at BITOG almost as long as here, have read hundreds of VOA & UOA results of different brands as well as many experts there discussing oil & other automotive fluids & additives.

unless i missed something in one of the embedded links from that article posted on page 1, they only mention 2 types of zddp, primary in diesel oils & secondary used along with primary in gasoline oils, they did mention oil techs can vary the combination for different results. but for about 10 years now valvoline's FAQ & talking to techs there, they explain that modern zddp is longer lasting & since its sacrificial not as much is needed as the older type in older oils. that along with modern anti wear additives is the main reason why i get a chuckle from guys thinking they need specialty or race oils with 1500-2000+ ppm of zddp or additives for their broken in stock cams or even "mild" cam/springs for the majority of street cars in this section. but outdated myths die hard.

after reading that article & the upcoming changes to diesel oil, i plan to use up the last of my older rotella t this next oil change (which hasnt caused any problems in 13+ years on one car i use it in) & will start using a good brand of normal oil with ~900 ppm of modern zddp & other additives like i do in my other stock cam pontiac for 25+ years. & i got 200k+ miles out of my prev FT cam daily using cheap but good quality oils like supertech with zero cam/lifter problems, its still running around town today!

It was one of the links from Lake Jr. that Steve posted. If it's still up. Maybe ask Steve, I'm sure he'd be kind enough to repost it if interested.

[SRR]

Originally Posted by MatthewKlein

Like many people I used the internet for research to hopefully make an informed decision. When I read plumbing, electrical, boiler etc forums it takes a bit for me to sift through the postings to find credible information. Auto repair is my trade.

People are free to paint their brick house, clean their silver coins, whatever they want. Thankfully we live in the United States and can enjoy classic cars and many other wonderful things.

There are always outliers:
Someone can live to be 100 smoking every day - George Burns comes to mind. But the standard is similar to Yul Brynner.

Some guy somewhere had an engine last 300,000 - 750,000 miles. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. Most don't. These are outliers.

Most antique vehicles will never be driven enough miles for the weight or brand of oil to matter.

I have a small auto repair in a small town. My computer records go back to 2002. Since 2002 our shop has generated 23,954 invoices.

Engines rarely fail but when they do there are 2 ways:
1. Overheating
2. Running out of oil

The engines that fail for lack of oil almost always result from burning the oil. Not from leaking externally. The engines that fail from burning oil ALWAYS burn oil from extended oil change intervals. Sometimes these intervals are Factory Recommended.

For what my 2cents is worth, I will never recommend extending an oil change interval. 2cents isn't worth what it used to be.

Hopefully I can be an asset to the forum

This is something my Dad drilled into my head as a teenager. He also stressed to always change the filter when doing an oil change. Some of the mentality back then was to only change the oil. I have had two vehicles with over 200K, one was a 2000 Camry with 275,000 miles that didn't burn oil and ran perfect. I did 3K oil changes on it. The other one is my 95 Jeep 4.0 with 260,000 miles on it. It doesn't burn a drop or leak and if you know anything about the 4.0 is not the norm lol. I do the oil and filter every 1000 miles but I only drive 8 miles total a day with the occasional 50 mile round trip. I don't do oil analysis but I do cut the filters open to inspect.

[F ROCK]

I remember a cheap oil that was green in color back in the late 70's early 80's.
Wolfs head?
Kendall?
Pretty sure it was wolfs head but maybe both.
I was using 'Havoline supreme" from texaco (?) at the time but i remember putting that green stuff in the tractor a few times.

[Jay S]

Steve C sent me an 1970 Pontiac oil bulletin. Interesting what it says about ram air engines taking 10w40 or 30wt at all times.

[Steve C.]

From the same 1970 chassis service manual regarding the oil filter...

Change at first oil change; every second oil change thereafter.


.

[MatthewKlein]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

This is something I agree with with some caveats.

We don't know what kind of oil or filters these owners have used over the life of the vehicle. They may have been the cheapest crap they could find (which is typical) and not something that would be formulated for extended change intervals. Some of the filters on the market are really horrible too. Owners don't much care if it's a lease or something they'll trade in after 5 years. Lots of grey area there. If you work in a shop you've probably seen all kinds.

I'd never recommend extending any oil change either, without an oil analysis first.

I don't want to come off wrong. When I make statements they are for the average person who might read this thread.

You are probably in the top 1/10th of 1% of people running carburetors. Can't be many people having their oil tested. And few people do the necessary testing and tuning to optimize their combination.

My recommendation not to stretch the oil change interval applies to the average person. I would hate for someone to read your personal experience and then think they can get away with it. That's where I'm coming from.

Most cars last a very long time with poor maintenance.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by MatthewKlein

I would hate for someone to read your personal experience and then think they can get away with it. That's where I'm coming from.

.

That's why I stress the point of oil analysis and hope people read it and understand this isn't a blind venture, there is a science behind it. Anyone can do it, it's not hard.

I've never recommended extending an oil change without an oil analysis first. Shucks I'd suggest it even with an early change interval. As precious as these cars are to people I'd think they'd like to know the health of the engine and exactly what they're putting in it. :Shrug:

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

The funny part is everyone seems to be worried about longevity on a classic car site, based on vehicles that no one drives more than a 1000 miles a year LOL...

True!

OTH, if the oil and lifter threads are good indicators, failures in the first 1000 miles are frequent once the original parts are replaced... and definitely painful.

[dataway]

I hear the oil companies are working on an oil that will make engines last as long as an oil thread. Although they are still having problems with Moderator contamination which shortens the life span.

[Tim Corcoran]

The issue with running 15-40 diesel oil in a Pontiac V-8 is the viscosity. These engines were designed to work with 30wt or 10-30 wt oil. Oil viscosity should be determined by the bearing clearance so if you have larger that stock bearing clearance then a 15-40 oil is fine. A lot of hobbyists with street rods like the diesel oils because they have a better additive package that includes extra ZDDP than your standard off the shelf motor oils. There are several oils out there that come in 10-30 wt that have higher levels of ZDDP than standard off the shelf oils, like Brad Penn and many others. If you're running a flat tappet cam then the additional ZDDP is important, but if you're running a hyd roller for a mild street engine it won't really gain you anything. If your making serious HP and racing the car then I would say the additional ZDDP is a good thing even for a roller cam but if your racing the car then you should have larger bearing clearances. With factory spec bearing clearances on your rods and mains 10-30 is the best choice as you will have better oil flow cold and hot and this provides better bearing cooling especially the rod bearings. Yes I did say cooling, your oil system is part of the overall cooling for the internals of your engine.