[unruhjonny]

First off;
I understand, and to a point agree with, the carburator guru's here who are hessitant to share casting number information (ect) in the hopes of stopping the fraudulent practice of stamping carburetors to garner higher profits...

That point which I stop agreeing with these guys is that it has gotten in the last couple years so that there are so many fake RA numbered rochesters out there, that it would be nice for someone who is legitimately looking to know what to look for in casting numbers, production changes, or changes between OEM versus SR castings...

As an example, there was a thread here recently that explored a '570 that showed me a subtle variation in it's top plate from the other top plates - a variation that was specific to the RA castings, and impossible to replicate ~ It's my assertion that informing anyone in the market to look for these details will hurt the re-stampers, and hopefully eventually put a stop to these practices.

I signed up on Cliff's forum, and it seems as though some of my questions are just a little too tough for the general membership to answer, and then we once again get to the proverbial brick wall of info...

I have set myself to fixing up my core carbs, with the aspiration of makng sure that if/when I sell them, that I have the carbs cleaned, assembed and running exactly as they should, with no hodge-podgery of differing year's parts.
(as an example, a 7041262 carb I bought has a 1972-1973 baseplate.)

I was looking over a couple '70 model years carbs last night and recording the differences when I observed the following;
one is an OEM carb, the other is the same number, but a SR carb;

While both carbs have the same top plate, and base plate casting (numbers), the main body casting number changed;
Did Rochester make some changes post-1970 to improve upon the original casting?
(IIRC it went from a 7038 to a 7044)

The base plates both carry the same casting number of 7037174, as well as the "P", but while one has a casted "40", the other has a casted "41";
One of these baseplates has the extra centre screw hole, while the other doesn't.
I suspect that the one lacking the extra screw is correct, but don't know what to make of the other baseplate;
Can anyone explain why I am seeing this variation in what should presumably be the same part?

I do not have any RA castings, but these two are a semi-desireable number.

I don't want to bother Cliff, as he seems like a great guy, and inquiries of this nature are in no way going to help him put food on his table - so I'd rather him stick to messaging people who are going to spend money enlisting his services.
(I try to look at it from the other person's stand point as often as feasable)

Thanks in advance for taking the time to consider, and reply to my query.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

The casting number on main body , and on base plate - is just the part number/casting number - for its basic form.

Different applications will require it to be machined - or not machined - or outfitted - in various configurations.

If your 2 base plates were in original SR Delco-RP boxes ... they would have different part numbers on their boxes. But still same casting number on both parts.

Sort of like how a 69 400cid 2 barrel Auto block from a Catalina - has the same block casting number as a 69 400cid RamAir3 4spd block.
Just a loose example. fwiw

[unruhjonny]

ok, from what I've been reading it seems as though these parts went through yearly changes, so I was surprised to see that the OEM and SR carbs had the same top and bottom plate casting numbers;
but I had thought that the "extra" screw was wrong - and that flat out confused me.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

On your main body - Production vs. SR

Some SR's were production based counter part allotments, over runs and left-overs.
Identical / same as production units with production date and pick codes.

The later SR's with post production dating "usually" will have a different casting number used on the main body.
RA carbs "usually" always followed that practice also.
I dont think it had anything to do with upgrades or enhancements.
Just another means of identification / verification.

Have not had any, or examined very many Non-RA SR carbs, to know how far that policy went concerning Non-RA units.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Some 70 carbs had the center hole in base plate - some did not.
Varies by application.

On top of that - for an example - 2 different applications that both call for Non-Center hole base plate - will usually still have even other differences in their final outfit.
Same casting - same machining - different finished outfit.

What application number are you dealing with on these 2 examples ? (7040262 etc)
I may have some to compare about the center screw hole.

[unruhjonny]

I'm sending you an email.

[carbking]

I am hesitant to post in this thread, as I am one of the individuals trying to protect the integrity of the hobby by NOT posting this type of information.

However, as BVZ posted, the casting numbers are internal numbers for a "blank" casting which can be machined a number of different ways to produce different part numbers for different carburetors.

Let me offer an example:

In 1957 Pontiac first started offering tripower.

The casting number on all 4 of the tripower carburetors (front, rear, center A/T, and center S/T) is 1869.

The front carb is not machined for idle screws and has a 1/8 pipe port
The center carb A/T is machined for idle screws and has a 1/8 pipe port
The center carb S/T is machined for idle screws and has a 1/8 pipe port and different slots.
The rear carb is not machined for idle screws and has no pipe port.

Additionally, the rear carb on the Olds J-2 setup for 1957 is not machined for idle screws, and has a 1/4 pipe port. It also has the cast number 1869.

So 5 different carburetors with the same casting number.

And one other comment, and I quote from your beginning post:

"a variation that was specific to the RA castings, and impossible to replicate".

Don't ever tell a thief he cannot do something. If some of the thieves (and that is my opinion of their status) were to put their talents to an honest profession, some of them could make far more than they make by fraud and thievery; but they just wouldn't be happy being honest. I have seen some restamps that I knew were restamps that almost fooled me. Some of the thieves have unbelievable talents!

And I do understand your frustrations. I just do not have an answer.

Jon.

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by carbking

I am hesitant to post in this thread, as I am one of the individuals trying to protect the integrity of the hobby by NOT posting this type of information. ...

I totally understand (as I mentioned in my first post);
When I first noticed these carbs were fetching good money, I started earnestly looking for a correct one - or something as close to correct for my car as I could;
Back then, you never heard of miscreants renumbering carbs.

now it's gotten out of hand.

IMHO, it's almost to the point that arming potential buyers with ways of identifying legitimate versus fakes, might be the best way to thwart this shady practice...

But all I have are MPC's, which give part numbers for assemblies, not casting numbers (eg: base plate 7040659 vs 7040872 vs 7037174)

In all, I took this to email with BVZ, who seems to be helping me clear this up, without having to air it out in public.

Thanks!

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

IMHO, it's almost to the point that arming potential buyers with ways of identifying legitimate versus fakes, might be the best way to thwart this shady practice...

There's no way to win the war against fakes - on the whole.
Making everything publicly posted knowledge in one "sticky" thread would educate as many crooks as it would honest buyers.

Back between 2005-2008 we used to dissect 2-4 RA carbs every week offered on eBay , for potential buyers. Mainly in the Judge section.

Most fakes will not even pass the initial casting number exam.
Usually its pretty easy to eliminate 95% of fakes almost instantly.
If the needed pictures are supplied or can be obtained - 99+% can be weeded out.

Close to about 1 of 3 actual real main bodies - will have either incorrect airhorn, or incorrect baseplate, or both. Mostly due to going through a Reman'r earlier in life.

If someone has faked one so well that nobody here can really prove it - then it may as well be considered genuine. That would probably be 1 in 1,000 or less.

If all was total common knowledge - that percentage would be much much higher.

If anyone wants an evaluation on a carb - all they have to do is post it in this section or the Judge section.

[70RAlll]

My opinion on not disclosing casting numbers is you guys are being paranoid.First, I have yet to see someone who can fake casting numbers.I would like to see the guy who can put new relief numbers /symbols on an old casting.The alloy used on these carbs would be impossible to re-cast casting numbers. It would be like someone changing the relief casting numbers on an intake manifold/engine,again quite impossible. unless you recast an entire fake unit.The carb numbers are a different story, the flat where they are stamped is easily ground off for restamping,but these numbers are all public easily referenced info. So "not disclosing" casting numbers is not hindering fakers at all, just making if a little more difficult for collectors to confirm their carbs identity. Secondly, all the real counterfeiters, and there are a few true "artists" out there, already have bought real carbs and know what they are faking.. Still, casting numbers are not fake'able, as the casting number term implies, they were cast into the part when it was made.
As far as your baseplate numbers having a center hole vs not. I am not saying I know definitively, but am pretty sure 69's used that same baseplate casting number as the 1970's and it was the 69's that used the center hole.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

i don't think the big concern -right now- is about anyone duplicating small raised numerals on castings. When that starts becoming obtainable - its practically game over.

the correct casting #s for RA pieces is public knowledge - or easy enough to access.

Its everything else beyond those points that is best left unsaid in uncontrolled open circles. If that goes over anyone's head - then the process has been pretty successful , ... so far. So far , so good .

A pro is a pro - no stopping a man with knowledge wisdom and pure expertise.
99+% of fake carbs we see up for sale are done by non-expertise.
Do we need more carb fakers with pure expertise ?

[carbking]

Originally Posted by 70RAlll

My opinion on not disclosing casting numbers is you guys are being paranoid.First, I have yet to see someone who can fake casting numbers.

“Paranoia is just having the right information.”
― William S. Burroughs

It can be done!

Jon.

[70RAlll]

I still say paranoid.. you can find quotes to fill any situation all over the internet. My favorite is the "what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger"Fred. Nietzsche, people love quoting that, not realizing a less famous quote by same idiot was "god is dead". And your quote from William Burroughs is a great example.. a life long drug addict educated at Harvard. another of Burroughs great ,profound quotes "Nothing is true, everything is permitted".... sounds like the current progressive movement that is ruining our country .. . Yea, I will take advice from that guy..

You guys are funny.. I am curious, how does this work.... seems every carb thread that BVZ posts on, shortly carbking and his buddy from Sweden,Kenth, post supporting threads. SO does BVZ call or email you guys asking for help supporting his positions? Is that how it works?? And are we all, irrespective of our experience, supposed to believe what the three of you say as gospel??

I will give a $100 bill to anyone who can show me a casting number on a base plate,body or airhorn of a Pontiac(since this is the GM division we are discussing here) Quadrajet that has been faked.And I will eat crow publically on this board. Have a feeling my money will stay in my wallet.I still say paranoid conspiracy of the dreaded carb forgeries. We are not talking about multi million $ old masters paintings here, couple hundred/thousand dollar Quadrajets just do not have the economic incentive and scale to warrant the production involved in re casting casting numbers.. Just not enough money or volume in it to ever bring this into our hobby. Good example,there is a 71 HO auto'1268 that has been on Ebay for 6+ months, no takers and it is priced fairly.Just like 73 SD carbs, very limited market, intact survival rate is off the charts for SD's,no scale so very little faking going on .There are only so many people who need a rare cars carburetor,no scale in faking a limited demand(limited by the number of cars left needing a particular carb) product to the level of recasting casting numbers.

And Carbking, if you know so much about carbs and have such a long history with Quadrajets.which I am not saying you don't... why wouldn't you just answer the original question that started this thread?? Surely someone with all of your knowledge would know definitively what the difference in the '7174 Pontiac baseplate casting was visa the 2vs3 hole center baseplate screws.We could all use your history/knowledge , sort of what these threads do..I answered suggesting it was a 69 vs 70 issue,pretty sure I am correct..
Yea.. I sort of unloaded here.. just one of those days..

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Where to start .... wow

In response to thread subject -
69 model vs. 70 model isn't the answer - but was as good of a guess as any other.

Johnny has two same numbered 70 Manual carbs with differing plate screws.

I pulled two very old untampered same numbered 70 Auto carbs out this evening - and they have differing plate screws too. lol (mine were 024 bodies - 174 plates)

We know 69 and 70 had differing choke/fast idle bobber assys.
Things can get swapped of course, remanr's can get involved, so its going to be hard to pin down who has original examples and who has altered examples.

On Non-RA 70 carbs - it -"might"- could even be date code / batch related.
Mine with center hole = 2029
Without = 3099

My final thought on this particular subject - i could really care less about openly discussing it anymore.
Kenth, CarbKing, or Ransom are probably the only ones who could point us to the right spots to make these determinations - but will probably compromise info that isn't worth compromising for such a small matter.

And i imagine those guys are already very tired of 70RAlll and his off-camber influxes and commentaries.

Johnny we can compare some more notes on what we have via PM tomorrow.

[unruhjonny]

Hey guys, I respect you all.

A part of respecting each other is accepting people (or in this case, opinions held by people) as they are.



I am sure none here are interested in seeing any more fake crappy wannabe carbs out there (iirc I even saw a 4MC once numbered as a 704027X ~ that was good for a laugh!)

I might have to send a query to Dan Jensen to confirm that I won't need a '273, but that fact, and any possible search for a legitimate RA carb aside, I just wanted to sort out what was considered correct castings for the assemblies I have here - most of which are fairly complete, but 4MV & 4MC castings I have here total aprox twelve, plus some 170X26X units... and then some Olds, some Chevy, and a solitary Buick casting...

I appreciate everyone chiming in here

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

70RAlll -
There are about 15-20 guys on here that are really up to speed on 68-70 RA carbs.
There are about 4-6 who are very elite regarding them.
This based on replies and contributions given in open forum in the past.

I'm probably mid-pack - that might be generous.

Less and less are getting involved anymore.
The Ultimate Grand Wizards of Rochesters may even be members here - but they aren't coming forward or contributing - so that is unknown.

All that said - nobody has a secret society of behind the scenes collaborations.
We just randomly hit them as we see them - if interested at all.
No rank and file system or assigned order of answering.
What i will call "the most common usuals" - we disagree with each other from time to time and correct each other from time to time.

The other things you have made mention of that i am not directly addressing - are just more of the same of your previous brain spasms..
Not worth the time it takes.

If you do feel they serve purpose - start your own thread about them.
If anyone cares enough, they will join in whether pro or con.

Coming into threads i post in to blow your smoke up my ass is not working in your favor. Whatever the agenda may be - the propaganda is ridiculous.

[transam1972]

I may be out of my league here,,but are there any threads or would it help to start one if guys were to post photos of known original carbs to help spot the obvious fakes out there..I would definitely like to see a real RA IV carb and see a 71, a 72 & a SD unit

[70RAlll]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Where to start .... wow

In response to thread subject -
69 model vs. 70 model isn't the answer - but was as good of a guess as any other.

Johnny has two same numbered 70 Manual carbs with differing plate screws.

I pulled two very old untampered same numbered 70 Auto carbs out this evening - and they have differing plate screws too. lol (mine were 024 bodies - 174 plates)

We know 69 and 70 had differing choke/fast idle bobber assys.
Things can get swapped of course, remanr's can get involved, so its going to be hard to pin down who has original examples and who has altered examples.

On Non-RA 70 carbs - it -"might"- could even be date code / batch related.
Mine with center hole = 2029
Without = 3099

My final thought on this particular subject - i could really care less about openly discussing it anymore.
Kenth, CarbKing, or Ransom are probably the only ones who could point us to the right spots to make these determinations - but will probably compromise info that isn't worth compromising for such a small matter.
And i imagine those guys are already very tired of 70RAlll and his off-camber influxes and commentaries.

Johnny we can compare some more notes on what we have via PM tomorrow.

There you go again worrying about disclosing protected "need to know" RA Quadrajet info(but will probably compromise info that isn't worth compromising for such a small matter.[/B])..
You are a funny guy.. pretty clear I got under your skin, really wasn't my intention, really..but I guess a bonus for me seeing you all bent out of shape. there is no info that needs to be protected or could be "compromised" on these carbs.besides casting numbers and internal metering RA carbs are not a whole lot different than non RA carbs of a similar model year.. again, my original point.. you are paranoid. you make "protecting info from forgers" into way more than in fact it is. More good would be done for owners/hobbyist just openly discussing all parts/info of these carbs vs anything gained by keeping forgers in the dark.sort of like fixing a problem that really doesn't exist..

no need to post multiple rebuttals. I will not be reading or responding..

[Formulabruce]

Carbs ~vs~ Cars
I can say as I was there, in the middle 70's to early 80's there was a TON, probably thousands "country wide" of Quadrajets ordered under warranty for "Quadrabog". SR carbs and originals were like candy, and most the replacements were on big inch engines for the "bog". After ordering a couple for my own cars, and looking at differences, I thought back then that all hell had broke loose and nothing would ever be the same, many many differences. Later, when carb numbers got "homogolated" like car coil springs, it got worse.. Its easy to see why there is just so much out there that may be wrong, and may be right for something else.

[unruhjonny]

/\ /\ That is an interesting insight into this matter.

...

Weel I just recieved an email from Dan Jensen (PSMCD), and he definatively put an end to my parts search, as I would be legal to run a '263 carb in either L78 or L74 trim!

Now, back to widdling down my parts stash, and getting my car going!