[Keith Seymore]

Let me finish this thought with a brief commentary about the "accuracy" of reporting in the motoring media:

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Let's play a game. How many mistakes can you find in this little article?



Let's begin -

1) "Rumor has it" - well, as you can see, it was no rumor. It was for real!

2) "...some engineers at GMC Truck and Coach..." - no, by then we were GM Truck and Bus. Truck and Coach implies the bus factory in Pontiac; we were obviously located in Milford.

3) "...found a fresh ZL1 in a crate in a dusty storage room somewhere in the bowels of Detroit..." - not correct, unless you consider Milford to be "the bowels of Detroit". And - the warehouse is not dusty. It's pretty clean.

4) "...they jerked the 454 out of a 1986 shortbed pickup..." - we've already established it was originally a small block truck and was a 1985 shortbox, not an '86.

5) "...switched over all the brackets and hardware onto the aluminum 427..." - as discussed, this specific motor was a 454 rather than a 427.

6) "..it's been screaming around the Milford Proving Grounds and laying waste to unsuspecting Corvettes and Trans Ams." - well, ok, that was true...

Just a friendly reminder to not believe everything you read... (except from me, of course!).

K

[rad400]

Hopefully the engine will go to some one good if the guy that had it in the truck passes on at some point. Keith do you know what goodies were put in to the test SD455? Did the SD ever have high compression heads at least for testing?

[brut4s]

Very cool!

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by rad400

Hopefully the engine will go to some one good if the guy that had it in the truck passes on at some point. Keith do you know what goodies were put in to the test SD455? Did the SD ever have high compression heads at least for testing?

Good question. Now this brings us full circle to the whole point of the Black Bird...The Black Bird demonstrated the effects of Russ Gee et. al at PMD engine engineering had been working on. That had been scraped. By puting the new 455 block with more webbing and stronger casting, not the station wagon 455, with high compression Ram Air IV heads and a hydraulic cam shaft designed by Tom Nell of PMD engineering put it into the motor and step back and see what the Black Bird would do.... How do you think it turned out?

In 1970 there was to be a high compression 455 with Ram Air IV in the GTO and Trans AM to compete with the Chevy 454 LS6 and Buick 455 Stage I. With the new Ponitac management in place the high compression 455 Ram Air project was scrubed. Instead managment wanted the engine engineer group to spend their money and time on the up coming low lead and lower emission regulations. Thus you got the same Ram Air III and Ram Air IV with a 455 low compression engine as an option.

As you know then for the 1971 model year you got the 455 round port HO motor. Lower compression but still very stout. According to the late John Sawruk, who did a lot of testing on this combo at the proving grounds. He claimed that the 1971 455 HO was the fastest GTO with two people on board and test equiptment. Now this was at the GM Milford Proving Grounds. Like everything else it was in a controled environment. Hard to say how much weight each car tested had with two people and the test equiptment.

But I don't know about you. But I wouldn't think about go up against a 1971 GS 455 Stage I or a 1971 Chevelle or Corvette 454/425Hp with a 1971 455HO round port with out some compression in that motor.

[mike nixon]

Eric have enjoyed this thread immensely.

Re your last comment. I ran a high comp version of the 455 HO back in the 80's as a starting point for my street racer. I NEVER had an issue with the Stage one cars or the 454 Chevies in stock form. That engine's a runner when built to High comp specs. It got to be a bit of a handful with portwork and a different cam profile.


Mike

[rad400]

Now a 455 with RAIV heads and a roller cam would have been killer.

[blueghoast]

Originally Posted by rad400

Now a 455 with RAIV heads and a roller cam would have been killer.

Can you only emagine;||||| WOW.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

Hard to say how much weight each car tested had with two people and the test equiptment.

We always assumed 100 lbs for equipment, 150 lbs driver and 150 lb passenger for development.

For emissions and regulatory testing there are very defined (and confusing) multiple combinations like "max curb", "EPA curb", GVW, etc, each with it's own specific constraints.

K

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by blueghoast

Can you only emagine;||||| WOW.

It is called Jim Wangers 1968 Firebird "Black Bird".

As I hope you have read in the magazine articles of this car earlier in the post....It took on all comers with a 455 and Ram Air IV heads. Yes, a lot of research was done to get the right flow out of those heads from Butch Elkin of Diamond Engines along with the right cam designed by Tom Nell of PMD engineering ground by General Kinetics. Tom was also excellent with Turbo 400 transmissions. Brian Ballish did the engine prep and assembly. "Old" technology got that car down in the low 10's high 9's in the early 70's. Although 11 flat was the times that Jim Wangers would tell every one. LOL

Yes, so imagine if John Delorean was still at the helm in 1970. A high compression 455 block with extra strength and those high compression Ram Air IV heads. A little more cam shaft too.

Instead John Delorean brought you the 1970 LS6 Chevelle may not have been top dog if John was still at PMD.....You could have also bought a LS7 through the Chevy parts department. Instant 10's with that LS7 in a Camaro with headers and 4.10's.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

We always assumed 100 lbs for equipment, 150 lbs driver and 150 lb passenger for development.

For emissions and regulatory testing there are very defined (and confusing) multiple combinations like "max curb", "EPA curb", GVW, etc, each with it's own specific constraints.

K

Keith,
What we don't know is the weight of the cars he tested. All of the magazine test cars Jim Wangers ordered had minimum equiptment and no dumb dumb and no sound deading or undercoating in the rear wheel well. This is the real unknown.

Then do we have two guys the size of the late John Sawruk at 230 or two guys your size Keith at 150lbs in those cars? LOL...Talk about a large weight difference. LOL Now Sawruk's extra weight could have had an advantage with better traction...LOL.

John once tried to explain the math behind the teste. It never did make much sence when you have so many real world factors. I gues that is way we go out and race. You after all can't race a math equation.! But I guess we can always keep testing the therory....LOL

In head to head not all of the cars at the Proving grounds had the same equipment when tested, did they?

What do you think?
Eric

[rad400]

Why did Delorean leave PMD? I may have miss that post.

[rad400]

Just was wondering I have heard that the 73-74 SD455 had more horsepower than rated is this true? I know it was around 290-310 BHP which is about 348-372HP flywheel useing 20% drivetrain loss.

[brut4s]

Dr.Schiffer, after reading Mr. Wangers book he said his '65 GTO was one of his all time favorite cars does he still have it and any engineering one offs on it? Please keep the stories coming I love the history.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by brut4s

Dr.Schiffer, after reading Mr. Wangers book he said his '65 GTO was one of his all time favorite cars does he still have it and any engineering one offs on it? Please keep the stories coming I love the history.

I'm sorry to say but these where just cars. Jim doesn't have any of the old cars. He went through cars like many people change their cloths.

For several years Jim had a personal car, the press/engineering fleet (maintained by Royal) and a dealership supplied "DEMO" car. But Jim's cars where kept at Royal and availible for sale at any time as a "demo". So Jim would show up and one of his cars would have been sold. He'd order a new one to have prep'd.

Jim's favorite car is the 1969 Judge. Mainly because it was his proposal that brought that car to market. I'm sure you know the story. It was to be a low cost Road Runner fighter with a 350 HO and post coupe called ET (Elapse Time not the space guy). Delorean never wanted anything less than a 400 in his GTO's. So the ET became the Judge. Instead of being the least expensive GTO. It became the most expensive in your face GTO. It was supposed to be a one year only car.

I think the 1965 GTO is his second favorite because it was a vast improvement over the first year '64 GTO. That is why Jim bought the current red '65 GTO post coupe 4 speed 389 Tripower to go along with his Judges. But like the two Judges he just sold, it too is for sale.

Thankfully Tenney Fairchild lives near Jim in California. Jim still gets to see the original red '64 GTO "Car and Driver" magazine car. Fully restored to the way it looked in the test and the way Jim street raced it!

The 1968 Firebird Black Bird is the only car that I have known Jim to have ever bought back. This car still has a few item that engineers from PMD tried out on the car. If you want to consider Brian Ballish and a few others as off site PMD engineers their finger prints are all over the car.

Tenney is on this forum at times too.

Currently, Jim's favorite has to be his 8 second PonteCarlo that Robert Johnson drives for him.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by mike nixon

Eric have enjoyed this thread immensely.

Re your last comment. I ran a high comp version of the 455 HO back in the 80's as a starting point for my street racer. I NEVER had an issue with the Stage one cars or the 454 Chevies in stock form. That engine's a runner when built to High comp specs. It got to be a bit of a handful with portwork and a different cam profile.


Mike

Mike,
It really is a great combination isn't? Very streetable and tame. Right up until you hit the gas. The Black bird, aside from needing a lot of racing fuel, is very livable on the street. The car does not have a big cam in it either and runs just fine.

Airflow Research in California or John Marcella, Marcella Intakes in Milford, Michigan are probably the two best, that are left, in getting the old cast round ports to really flow with minmum work. I believe Butch Elkin, Diamond Engines, Michigan has retired and Bob Schafer has passed away. Both had excellent reputations with the racers of the 60's and '70's.

Pontiac's love proper head porting, compression and timing! Then stand back and watch good things happen!!

Eric

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by rad400

Why did Delorean leave PMD? I may have miss that post.

The reason John Delorean left Pontiac is because he got a promotion. Just like Semon Emil "Bunkie" Knudsen and Elliott M. "Pete" Estes before him. The promotion means go onto the bigger division, Chevrolet.

[steveinmontana]

Outstanding gentlemen. Thank you all for everything you have posted. Please keep-em coming!

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Royal Pontiac's 1968 Tempest coupe (post) 350 HO that was to be the format of Jim Wangers proposed 1969 ET Road Runner contender for Jr. Stock.

Brian Ballish wanted use the 744 camshaft had proven this car would have been even faster than the 068 it used in this test. But even with the 068 in the 350HO it showed that it was faster than the base 400/350HP in the goat. A no no...

Last page on following post.

Remember Jim Wangers name can never be mentioned in a magazine associated with Royal since 1964. So you will always think Milt came up with these ideas and had the others guys help him build it. As you read, observe and think about all of these articles. You begin to get the "REAL" picture of the back room at Ace Wilson's Royal Ponitac and the direct association with PMD just a few miles up the road.

Enjoy.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

More on the 1968 Tempest 350HO vs 1968 Road Runner 383

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Now how about the early production 1969 GTO Ram Air IV Lime Light Green, white interior with rear ant. that was a total embarrassment at the press preview.

The car was used in the PMD catalogue and on TV road test shows. Then it became Jim Wangers company car. However they need a Judge for the east coast mgazines. The only Jdge built so far was at the West Coast press preview.

This East Coast Judge Ram Air III was built and sent out east to "Cars Magazine" test car "Super Stock and Drag Ill" Ram Air III, "Car and Driver" magazine and others.

It became Jim Wangers' person street racer. It was even prepaired used as a Ram Air V Test Car for winter testing in Florida. But ran ened up running the quarter mile for the article in Florida with it's other motor into the 11's. (The car that Ro wrote about as being Had)

Take note of the Ram Air IV air cleaner that gave the name to the system with 4 inlets. You will see this set up again when this car becomes a Ram Air III Judge in another artilce. (but missed named as the Ram Air IV engine. On purpose?)

This lime light green GTO got a real work out in 1969!