[projectfolly]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

Mark,
Great old picture. I'm assuming this is from Walloon Lake.
Ace Sr. told me about a hunting lodge on several acres he bought for his friends to hunt on up north. Do you know anything about it? When Sr. was in his 90's he had already given up driving. He told me he was upset he had no one to go with. Even though I was not a hunter. I sometimes regret I never volunteered to take him one last time.
Eric

Eric,

Yep, your assumption is correct, the picture was taken at Walloon Lake. These pictures were shared by a friend of mine Matt Figurski. Matt's father, Donald worked at Royal back in the day. Matt tells me he and his family spent a lot of time with Ace up at Walloon lake.
I wasnt personally involved, I'm just sharing on Matt's behalf.
Might have another picture to share as well.

Mark

This is a shot of Ace's place at Walloon Lake from the outside...

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by projectfolly

Eric,

Yep, your assumption is correct, the picture was taken at Walloon Lake. These pictures were shared by a friend of mine Matt Figurski. Matt's father, Donald worked at Royal back in the day. Matt tells me he and his family spent a lot of time with Ace up at Walloon lake.
I wasnt personally involved, I'm just sharing on Matt's behalf.
Might have another picture to share as well.

Mark

This is a shot of Ace's place at Walloon Lake from the outside...

Mark,
Thanks for posting the pictures from up north. It is amazing what a little "milk" money can buy you! LOL (Now this will be food for thought for some of you guys, "Milk money"?)

Eric

[rad400]

That is alot of "Milk money" Eric

[SD421]

Maybe I need to start my OWN dairy farm!!!!! LOL

Don

[SD421]

Originally Posted by quicksilver97ta

Per the article, it was later found to have some broken piston rings.

All this info and the articles/attachments are great, thanks for posting!

Ah, now I see it mentioned. Didnt look too close at the caption under that pic.

Yes, Quicksilver these are all great articles.

Don

[mike nixon]

That's a nice lake shack!

[higgenslake]

"Milk money"=Wilson's Dairy

[projectfolly]

Another pic of Ace at Walloon Lake.

Notice sitting next to Ace is a can Budweiser, like in the first picture. Matt tells me Ace referred to it as his "soup".

Seated at the far left is Jeff Feldstien (might not have spelled the name right), his father Mort, worked at Royal.
Between Jeff and Ace is John Figurski and far right is Matt Figurski. Again, Matt and John's father worked at Royal, in various positions in the service department.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by higgenslake

"Milk money"=Wilson's Dairy

Asa "Ace" Wilson Sr. and his older brother Ira Wilson Jr. worked for their father on the dairy farm. I beleive it was in Imlay City. Their father realized that they could make more money by trucking their own milk rather then selling it to others to truck and process the milk.

As time went on the Wilson brothers took the family business to a new level. They did home delivery, sold to grocery stores, restaurants, etc and opened up Wilson Dairy Stores with many chocolates, dairy products and ice cream. They also made sweets for other up scale chocolate companies.

After Ace Jr graduated college his uncle Ira told his brother, Ace Sr., that he did not want Ace Jr working in the dairy business. Ira did not have much confidence in Ace Jr.

Ace Sr. needed his son to do something so he bought a Pontiac dealership for him to run. Then Sr. built the new show room a few blocks south at 400 N. Main St. This is the one everyone has seen.

The old Ira Wilson Dairy office building on Hoover north of Nine Mile Rd was torn down within the last year.

But lets not get into Ace Jr.'s personal life. It is sad that Jr. died at an early age and leave it at that.....OK!

[muscle_collector]

how old was he and how did he die???

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by muscle_collector

how old was he and how did he die???

In the late 1980's Asa Sr. told me that his son had been living "up north" and had a constant sore throat. He went to Burns Hospital in Petoskey MI, near Walloon Lake about it. They found he had an advance stage of cancer. (I beleive, but don't quote me it has been several years since this conversation) Ace Jr. went to be treated at Cleveland Hospital. They told him they could not do anything more for him. Sr. said Jr went down to Florida to die. I don't even remember the approximate year Jr. died.

I would have to estimate that Ace Jr. was in his 50's when he died. Sr. did not pass away until he was in his mid to late 90's. I went to the funeral but I don't remember the exact year. But it was in around 2000.

Their are others that beleive Jr. died of other problems. I don't know. I do not want to speculate. I'm just relating to you what Ace Sr. told me.

Sr. would tell me how much he missed his son. I never wanted to push the subject. So, if we could drop the subject and just try and remember the good times it would be more fun.

In 1989 - 1992 I worked with Domino's Farms, (Domino's Pizza's HQ) in Ann Arbor, to put the GTO Northen Nationals together. The first few years I had the dash plaques and awards state on the bottom, "In Memory of Asa "Ace" Wilson Jr.". Since Ace Sr. lived near me I had my wife and kids bring Ace Sr. a couple of the years. Ace Sr.'s daughter, Jr's sister, Dee Sterling and her daughter also attended. They greatly appreciated the gesture.

[gto4door]

Dr. Schiffer,
Thanks for doing some research and getting some answers on Towne Pontiac. Getting back to Ace Jr., I was once told that Ace Jr. was friends with Jimmy Hoffa's driver/body guard (don't know his name). Because of that relationship, a few 421 powered "Bobcat" 4-door hardtop Bonneville 's were ordered for Hoffa fleet. Do you know much about those cars and if any of those Hoffa Bonneville's are still around? Thanks.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by gto4door

Dr. Schiffer,
Thanks for doing some research and getting some answers on Towne Pontiac. Getting back to Ace Jr., I was once told that Ace Jr. was friends with Jimmy Hoffa's driver/body guard (don't know his name). Because of that relationship, a few 421 powered "Bobcat" 4-door hardtop Bonneville 's were ordered for Hoffa fleet. Do you know much about those cars and if any of those Hoffa Bonneville's are still around? Thanks.

The name is Chuckie O'Brien. He was considered Jimmy Hoffa's step. son/adopted son. But not by marriage. It was just the way Jimmy Sr. treated Chuckie, like his own son. Chuckie was also the person mostly looked at in the disappearance of Jimmy Sr. from Machus Red Fox restaurant on Telegraph Rd and Maple, Bloomfield Twp. Jimmy was driving a Ponitac that day in 1975. A redish color 2 door full size. The car was found sitting next to Machus.

It was because of Jr.'s close realtionship with Chuckie and the Teamsters that GM management was not happy with Jr.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by gto4door

Dr. Schiffer,
Thanks for doing some research and getting some answers on Towne Pontiac. Getting back to Ace Jr., I was once told that Ace Jr. was friends with Jimmy Hoffa's driver/body guard (don't know his name). Because of that relationship, a few 421 powered "Bobcat" 4-door hardtop Bonneville 's were ordered for Hoffa fleet. Do you know much about those cars and if any of those Hoffa Bonneville's are still around? Thanks.

Oh, by the way the Teamsters' Bonnie's were all black 4 doors. I don't know anything more about them.

[blueghoast]

WOW: Never new of or heard of any of this stuff before.
It's amazing the things a person can still learn, your never
To old huh.


GT.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Here is another unknown for you. I beleive it was in 1962 that Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac built a "Special" Royal Bobcat for Barron Hilton. This is according to Win Brown who help build the car. If I remember correctly, and it has been a number of years, Win told me it too had a supercharger on it simular to Ace Jr's '62 black Grand Prix.

[SD421]

Speaking about special cars. What do you think happened Delorean's "personal" car that was the test mule for the GTO?

Don

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by SD421

Speaking about special cars. What do you think happened Delorean's "personal" car that was the test mule for the GTO?

Don

Don,
In answer to your question about Delorean's 'personal' car that was a test mule for the GTO. The mule/preproduction/pilot 389 Tempest used was put together by PMD engineering at the Milford proving grounds. Dealorean used to have Saturday morning "what if" meets at the Proving Grounds in Milford. Like most mules, it would be scraped. If it had some engineering parts on it. Some engineer may have taken it off for himself before the car got scraped.

Some guys like Greggs '74 T/A SD had the parts fabed by engineering for his personal car and used it as a test bed and reported back to others on his results. But he personally benefited.

Although some engineers used to follow our trucks back to the yard and ask if it was all right to take something off the load. After all we'd pay penny's on the pound.

The '67 Firebird OHC 6 that Delorean used to drive around had side draft webbers on it. While the car was probably scraped that set of Webbers and the intake are still floating around Detroit. Much like many other engineering one offs.
Just ask Keith Seymore to pipe in.
Eric

[brut4s]

Mr. Seymore, Can you tell us about some of the engineering one offs?

[Keith Seymore]

Well, I think in the context here Eric is referring to the "blurring" of the lines between General Motors owned and "personal" property, and how these "one off" engineering pieces make it to the outside.

This is a bit long, for which I apologize, and it involves a Chevy pickup rather than a Pontiac (again, I apologize in advance) but I think it highlights the point(s) Eric is making -

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

The "Little White Race Truck"

I was exchanging PM's with another member here and it made me think of a story you all might appreciate:

As I mentioned earlier, I was reassigned to the GM Proving Ground in Milford, Michigan in 1986. I was delighted to find my new office mate John was, although a bit older than me, a former drag racer that still had the bug. He was/is quite a charismatic man and drew the other racers and motorheads to himself like flies to honey.

He also was the Engineering Vehicle Fleet Coordinator. That meant that if you needed a certain type of truck for a particular test you went to see John. That also meant that if you needed a Suburban for vacation over the weekend, you also went to see John. He was a popular guy.

Well, just before I got there, he and his racing cronies had found a nondescript little white short box stepside pickup in the fleet, vehicle number CP5085. It started life as your typical 1985 small block pickup truck, but the guys had been playing around a bit with it and decided it could use a little more "punch". So - they found a garden variety 454 big block, plus all of the 1973 vintage parts (ie, crossmembers, two piece drive shaft, etc) to convert the driveline, and made themselves a little 454/TH400 powered street truck.

Naturally, after a little bit of that they decided they wanted more. They were able to locate a real LS6 454 motor and dropped that in. About that time they started taking short jaunts off property, including "test sessions" to Milan dragway. Those who had been working on the truck (on second shift, mostly) were given an opportunity to make a pass in it. I think by this time the truck was running high 12s/maybe low 13's, and also starting breaking things. A 9.5" ring gear axle from a 3/4 ton truck, with the axle shafts redrilled for a "5 on 5" bolt circle, was installed about this time, as well as a rear mounted fuel tank (from a Blazer/Suburban) and bed mounted battery.

Well, as you might guess, soon that wasn't enough. A trip to the parts counter netted an original LS7 454 motor and within a day or so that was installed. Times dropped to the low 12s and, with some tuning/cold air, etc, dropped into the high 11's. By now a roll cage was necessary and installed, as were some traction aids.

Unbeknownst to the rest of us John was taking us to the next level. He had noticed something over in the parts warehouse: something not only interesting for the present but with some historical value...

Back in late 1968 (calendar year), when the 1969 models were introduced, there was a big event out on "Black Lake" (the Vehicle Dynamics pad). The motoring press was invited in for this auspicious event and, on the pad, were some special vehicles. Namely - two ZL1 all aluminum 427 powered Corvettes, plus a smattering of ZL1 powered Camaros. In addition, there was one engine placed on a stand, both for display purposes and as a backup motor in case something happened to one of the engines in the car. John had found this exact engine over in the warehouse.*

John approached the "owner" of the engine (ie, the guy that had the warehouse "property tag") and attempted to make a deal. He was unsuccessful. He tried a couple times more later on and, even after using all his charms, was still unsuccessful.

He was about to despair when suddenly the breakthrough came: this guy was pulling his snowmobiles "up north" and needed a Suburban. With a gleam in his eye John made the pitch and a deal was struck: just like Esau, who sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of soup, this guy could have a Suburban in exchange for this original ZL1 454 engine.



* This backup engine was not a 427 like the others, but was a 454. It also appeared on magazine covers and in articles back in the day.

Here is a picture of that specific engine (ie, not "one like it", or "of this type", but THIS EXACT ENGINE):

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

It didn't take long for that engine to be installed, running and tuned up (again, mostly on second shift). Elapsed times dropped again, first to low elevens and eventually to high 10's (best ET on the truck was a 10.71). Things were going great; we were terrorizing the Proving Ground and we were having a blast.

Then, things started to change. I came in to work one day and, laying on my desk, was a clipping from an enthusiast magazine. The title was "Is it True?" and the article said something about these engineers at the Milford Proving Ground, and that they had put a 454 in a pickup and were "...laying waste to unsuspecting Corvettes and Trans Ams..." or some such thing. I thought it was pretty cool and mentioned it to John. He didn't seem to think it was so cool for some reason.



Some time after that I came in and found another piece of paper on my desk (this was back when we still had "mail" - ie, not email). We had a standard form letter, called a "Vehicle Disposition Worksheet", that we got about once per week. It told where vehicles were going, where they were shipped to, or what they were doing. I scanned this particular letter until my finger stopped cold on one line: "Vehicle CP5085 - Final Disposition - Scrap". All the blood ran from my face; John was sitting there and with a parched mouth I asked "...John, why does this vehicle number look familiar?".

He looked around and said "...step into my 'office'". (Naturally, we were already "in his office" - which was MY office, too. What he meant was "come with me to my truck". As fleet coordinator, he could order whatever vehicles he felt were necessary. One vehicle that was ALWAYS necessary was a white/red Crew Cab dually, diesel, with Alcoa aluminum wheels. He always had at least one of these vehicles in the fleet, and since it was the "Queen of the Fleet", we always called it "the Queen". A secondary meaning was that it was as large as the Queen Mary. At any rate, "step into my office" = "come with me to the Queen so that we can discuss this privately").

We sat in the truck in the parking lot and the story began to unfold: Our boss, Jim, was a pretty easy going guy. He had kept a blind eye to all this fun and frivolity, but every man has his breaking point. When the little blurb in the magazine came out, well, that was the last straw. He had called John into his office a couple Fridays before and said (...and I quote...): "John, that truck has notoriety far beyond what you think or imagine. I want it gone and I want it gone NOW!".

John could see that Jim was in no mood for negotiation. However, by the next Monday (after this meeting), when things had cooled down a bit, he had a proposal. The truck was currently broken (broke a rocker arm stud) and not running. Could he repair the engine, so that the motor could be stored as an intact, functioning unit, and THEN scrap the truck? Jim thought that would be ok, so the plan was carried out. The truck was repaired, stripped of all the goodies, and the remaining hulk (ie, cab, box and frame) scrapped.

CP5085 was no more...

...Or was it?........

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Some of you may already be familiar with the GM "PEP" program (ie, "Product Evaluation Program"), whereby vehicles can be ordered and driven as a company vehicle and then purchased at a discount. John was also a PEP driver and when it came time for his next vehicle we were all amused to see the cutest little red 1987 Chevy V6 shortbox stepside pickup arrive with his name on it.

John drove the truck for the required 3000 miles and purchased it. Almost immediately after it got home the V6 was removed (and sold), a 454/TH400 driveline installed and much of the technology from CP5085 added. Out of the box John's little red truck was running low 11's and shortly thereafter dipped into the high 10's. Many observers at the track thought it was simply the original white truck with a new red paint job.

You might be wondering if the engine in this new truck was aluminum or cast iron. It's cast iron (...we checked.... with a magnet). I've asked John where the aluminum engine is, my interest being in preserving a piece of history, and he will only tell me "it's safe". To this day I do not know where it is but only that "it is safe".

I really have to stop and comment for a minute on how much I learned during this time, even though by then I had been racing almost 10 years. John really helped me learn the value of collecting data and analysis, tricks and tuning of a big Chevy and if it weren't for him and the guys my race program would not be where it is today.

CP5085 lives on, not only in my heart but in the abilities of those who were involved with it and are continuing to take what we learned and apply it to our own race programs.

So my point here is in demonstrating how these generic, unassigned fleet vehicles get drafted into some relatively interesting assignments.

You will also note when the order was given to "scrap" the truck, that all of the "good stuff" was removed for safekeeping and that the only part of the truck that was crushed was the cab, box and frame. Those parts still exist, either on John's little red truck or, in the case of the engine, tucked away somewhere in a location unbeknownst to me.

I think this is a perfect picture and speculate this parallels perfectly what likely happened in the development and final disposition of Delorean's little test mule.

K