[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by SD421

Dr. Schiffer,
Do you have any info on exactly what size engines the 1966 GeeTeeOh race cars had??

389 or 421's??

Thanks,
Don

Don,
The 1966 Royal Race car that Milt drove was a legal NHRA 389/ 360HP.

Officially the GeeTO Tigers and their tow cars were well prepaired 389/360HP 4 speeds.

Eric

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Don,
This is Royal's 1964 GeeTeeOoh! Dick Jess and Jim Wangers shared driving "Royal's Tuff LiL".

Since at the end of the 1964 model year Jim Wangers was asked, corrected told, he could no longer officially race Dick went on to do his own cars. Here are Royal Pontiac's high performance salesman Dick Jesse's cars.

Royal only wanted to be known for it stock class race cars. So Dick Jesse was sponsored first by one of Royal Pontic's Race car suppliers/race car mechanic's shops. Clarence Walthers' Highland Park Transmission in Highland Park, MI. Then in 1966 Dick was sponsored by Stan Long Pontiac.

Here is Pete Seaton's '63 Catalina SD 421 sponsored by Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac. Pete's dad was a General Motors VP. Pete's dad asked Jim Wangers get his son into racing. Pete went onto campaign many Chevrolets known as "Seaton's Shakers".

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

Don,
This is Royal's 1964 GeeTeeOoh! Dick Jess and Jim Wangers shared driving "Royal's Tuff LiL".

Since at the end of the 1964 model year Jim Wangers was asked, corrected told, he could no longer officially race Dick went on to do his own cars. Here are Royal Pontiac's high performance salesman Dick Jesse's cars.

Royal only wanted to be known for it stock class race cars. So Dick Jesse was sponsored first by one of Royal Pontic's Race car suppliers/race car mechanic's shops. Clarence Walthers' Highland Park Transmission in Highland Park, MI. Then in 1966 Dick was sponsored by Stan Long Pontiac.

Here is Pete Seaton's '63 Catalina SD 421 sponsored by Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac. Pete's dad was a General Motors VP. Pete's dad asked Jim Wangers get his son into racing. Pete went onto campaign many Chevrolets known as "Seaton's Shakers".

Cool, thanks for the pics & info.

This is the first Ive seen and heard that Royal had a 1964 GTO. Any info on the times it posted?? Also the 1965 GTO Royal drag car arent spoken of much either.

Its the 1966 GeeTeeOh GTO's you get more info/read about.

Thanks,
Don

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

How about the 1967 test session at Motor City Dragway. Most people think Royal kept going back to the drag strip for every magazine article. Not true.

Look in the back ground and you will see a couple more Firebirds. One of the Firebirds is the Mystery Bird and the other one is for the compairson of the automatic vs the 4 speed Firebird test.

I want you to look closely at the picture of Sid Warren where he is puting the wing nut onto the air cleaner lid. Can you see the edge of the ram air pan that holds the foam? Is it a smooth edge like stamped steel or a rough wavy edge you'd find on fiberglass? Humm.

Many times the slower driver got the fastest car and the faster driver the slower car to keep things at least close if not even. There was a reason we call John Poitzer "Cheater". Look at the way he lines up the 2+2 at the light. It is not straight. By coming in a little sideways he fools the starting light that he has a larger tire and the timer will not start until he breaks the beam. Think about it. There are several other tricks John would use. You'll note John usually gets them out of the hole.
My good buddy, John "Cheater" Polizter. Really...LOL

One more page just for a paragraph.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Last paragraph....

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by SD421

Cool, thanks for the pics & info.

This is the first Ive seen and heard that Royal had a 1964 GTO. Any info on the times it posted?? Also the 1965 GTO Royal drag car arent spoken of much either.

Its the 1966 GeeTeeOh GTO's you get more info/read about.

Thanks,
Don

I really don't remember the times on the '64 GTO. As for the '65 I'm beating Keith can come up with that one. I have a few articles on Dick's car but it will take me some time to find them. But Dick's cars are not sponsored by Royal. I'll post them if Keith doesn't.

Eric

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

How about the 1967 test session at Motor City Dragway. Most people think Royal kept going back to the drag strip for every magazine article. Not true.

Look in the back ground and you will see a couple more Firebirds. One of the Firebirds is the Mystery Bird and the other one is for the compairson of the automatic vs the 4 speed Firebird test.

I want you to look closely at the picture of Sid Warren where he is puting the wing nut onto the air cleaner lid. Can you see the edge of the ram air pan that holds the foam? Is it a smooth edge like stamped steel or a rough wavy edge you'd find on fiberglass? Humm.

Many times the slower driver got the fastest car and the faster driver the slower car to keep things at least close if not even. There was a reason we call John Poitzer "Cheater". Look at the way he lines up the 2+2 at the light. It is not straight. By coming in a little sideways he fools the starting light that he has a larger tire and the timer will not start until he breaks the beam. Think about it. There are several other tricks John would use. You'll note John usually gets them out of the hole.
My good buddy, John "Cheater" Polizter. Really...LOL

One more page just for a paragraph.

Sorry for all of the questions but this particular article is making me think!!! lol

Why didn't Royal do any Magazine articles of putting the big car engines into the A body cars??
A 421 into a 1965 or 1966 GTO or the 428 into a 1967 GTO. You think Wangers would have been trying to show every type of combo to sell the GTO.

I know there is the 1968 GTO "The Bossman" that did have a 428 put into it for a magazine article.

Just curious,
Don

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Here is what two over the hill street racers look like trying to change the ecentric on my 68 428 GTO Royal Bobcat last year.
It was John that was excited to get his hands dirty and get it done.

So I ask myself, why am I always the one one getting dity when it was John's idea? It must be the age thing.... I can still get up off the ground without groaning. You know at John age it gets more difficult. Just kidding John!

Say, do you like my classic wooden creeper?

It was my wife Janis that wanted to document this. LOL

P.S. This is John "Cheater" Politzer.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Ahhh. Now you want me to dig up those artilces too.

But first for the same reason Jim was told to stop appearing in the magazines he had to first and foremost promote Pontiac on behave of all of the dealers around the country. Jim had many hats but he worked for the ad agency. Very few dealership wanted to even get near performance. They just wanted to sell sedans.

Remeber at first Royal Pontiac was only a testing ground to see there was an interest in dealerships handling performance equiptment. From there Royal Pontiac really became the high performance distrbutorship to the other dealers around the country.

Give a little time and I'll get you those.

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

Ahhh. Now you want me to dig up those artilces too.

But first for the same reason Jim was told to stop appearing in the magazines he had to first and foremost promote Pontiac on behave of all of the dealers around the country. Jim had many hats but he worked for the ad agency. Very few dealership wanted to even get near performance. They just wanted to sell sedans.

Remeber at first Royal Pontiac was only a testing ground to see there was an interest in dealerships handling performance equiptment. From there Royal Pontiac really became the high performance distrbutorship to the other dealers around the country.

Give a little time and I'll get you those.

LOL I thought that would be your answer!! LOL

Thanks again Doc,

Don

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Here is an article on the 1968 GTO 428 Royal Pontiac Bobcat. This red GTO appeared in several article that year with different engines including the 400 Ram Air II.

As soon as I dig it up I'll give you a 428 Firebird test.

By the way all of the locals knew we could get the 421 and 428's and did. As I put in one of my earlier posts my friend Les Goodman had royal put in a 428 with Ram Air IV heads when his original 400 was ruined.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Here is the 1968 Firebird 428 test. There where other dealerships beside Royal doing the convertions. Royal is mentioned in the article.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

I really don't remember the times on the '64 GTO. As for the '65 I'm beating Keith can come up with that one. I have a few articles on Dick's car but it will take me some time to find them. But Dick's cars are not sponsored by Royal. I'll post them if Keith doesn't.

Eric

While we wait to see if Keith has any info on Dick's 1965 Mr. Unswitchable and some changes to it.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Here is a second artile on Dick's 1965 GTO.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

A complete article on Dick Jesse's very advanced thinking 1966 GTO.

[goatman65]

I want the Royal plate on your 68.lol.
Is that an original from 'back in the day'?

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by goatman65

I want the Royal plate on your 68.lol.
Is that an original from 'back in the day'?

My word whatever are you talking about? Why would anyone ever want some old front plate? A plate that most people did not even notice when it was on the front of test cars even when they were a magazine cover back in the day.

You'll have to look closely at the back cover of the 1968 Royal Pontiac Catalogue on the bottom you will see two '68 GTOs. They both have the Royal Pontiac front license plate and frame on them.

Also look closely and you will see the front plate on both my '68 GTO and Firebird "Black Bird" as they flank Jim Wangers '69 Judge.

Heck, enlarge the photo next to my name. The black bird has one on it at the strip. It was on a magazine and in a few books with that plate on it. Early on I first had a personalized plate 1BLKBRD then I had a 1968 Manufactures (M) plate on the car which required a front and rear plate. The GTO having a 1968 Dealer (D) plate only required the rear plate. That is why some of the Pontiac from Royal had two plates and others had only one.

The factores used to and still do use regular Michigan plates. In the old days they used to be creative and get the first two then later first three letters GM, CH or CHY and FD. Now it is just non discript plates.
LOL

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

My word whatever are you talking about? Why would anyone ever want some old front plate? A plate that most people did not even notice when it was on the front of test cars even when they were a magazine cover back in the day.

You'll have to look closely at the back cover of the 1968 Royal Pontiac Catalogue on the bottom you will see two '68 GTOs. They both have the Royal Pontiac front license plate and frame on them.

Also look closely and you will see the front plate on both my '68 GTO and Firebird "Black Bird" as they flank Jim Wangers '69 Judge.

Heck, enlarge the photo next to my name. The black bird has one on it at the strip. It was on a magazine and in a few books with that plate on it. Early on I first had a personalized plate 1BLKBRD then I had a 1968 Manufactures (M) plate on the car which required a front and rear plate. The GTO having a 1968 Dealer (D) plate only required the rear plate. That is why some of the Pontiac from Royal had two plates and others had only one.

The factores used to and still do use regular Michigan plates. In the old days they used to be creative and get the first two then later first three letters GM, CH or CHY and FD. Now it is just non discript plates.
LOL

This must be the cover shot Milt talks about in his book, where he backed the Bird up while the tide went out. He's laying down inside the front seat. Wonder why they lost oil pressure during the testing.

Don

[muscle_collector]

did you know bill knafel personally?

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by muscle_collector

did you know bill knafel personally?

Sorry, I was only introduced to him by Jim Wangers at Norwalk several year ago when he was driven by Jim's tent.