[78w72]

Originally Posted by steve25

So did a inspection of the flexplate find a crack?

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

We decided to remove the Flywheel first, due to the fact that it is on the drive train side, that was most affected by the accident involving the Trans. We finally got it out Friday night and we can't see any stress related cracks from the accident. However, there are "out of round" bolt holes, through the Flywheel to the Crankshaft, that are suspect.

no cracks

[Murf]

Originally Posted by steve25

With the rear of Chevy block having a top center bell housing bolt and a pyramid shape it would be extremely hard to mistake it for a B.O.P trans!

Yes Steve, It would be easy to notice for most folks if they were looking for it. I just thought I’d mention the possibility of an adapter plate being used. Thus the need for a spacer on the crank / flex plate.
Just trying to figure out why there would be a spacer where there shouldn’t be.

Murf

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

All the information is in this thread and there are other Threads that I have been involved in that have the rest of my info. documented.

You can look at anyone's Threads that they communicated in ever, if you go into each one's own Threads that they either started or were involved in.

You could start from the beginning of this very Thread for a wealth of info. That you may enjoy and learn from as well.....

I understand and agree I could search and read everything you have been through. I appreciate your perseverance and I use this forum the same way - to learn from these experts.

P.S. Most of the people that are following me have been for the past couple of years and they are up to date without having to read back to the beginning...

I suggest you deal with one topic as a time. I don't think too many members "follow" other members. In my experience, PY is "issue-focused" and everyone's attention is short.

Originally Posted by P@blo

......
This thread is over two years old Mike and you are still asking...

I think you will have better success if you open a new thread for each topic. For example, open a new thread about the flexplate. When you get past that, open a new thread for the next issue you address.

And hang in there! You obviously have a lot to be proud of and many of us share your commitment to learn and enjoy their Pontiac.

[P@blo]

Mike, all personal issues put aside. I help the elderly cross the street but I am not sure how this helps me tune an engine or pertains to the topics at hand. And I am sure you are a stand up guy no doubt about that.

Here is something also to consider. If I were to spend the next 7 years playing video games does that make me a professional Masters Degree player? Nope it just means I am old guy cannon fodder for the young people. Just because one spends years doing something does not make us automatically good at it unfortunately.

You might want to go back an reread your thread, from the begining, and map out all the good advice given. Then make some choices and pick a direction you want to go so you arrive at some form of a destination eventually.

Either that or your goal is to simply keep dragging this thread back to the top for personal reasons.

[400 Lemans]

Well now that you have the trans removed you are at a good place to go ahead and pull that engine. Fix the shortblock and be done with it.

[blueghoast]

Have the flex plate 0-balanced?
No need for a new one unless it's broke or cracked

GT

[Cliff R]

So we are back to ground zero here.

You have a second vote for just pulling the engine and doing what it takes to get all the connecting rods and pistons facing the right direction. That will be a HUGE step forward in your long quest for a positive outcome with your project.......IMHO......

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Murf

Yes Steve, it would be easy to notice for most folks if they were looking for it. I just thought I’d mention the possibility of an adapter plate being used. Thus, the need for a spacer on the crank / flex plate.
Just trying to figure out why there would be a spacer where there shouldn’t be.

Murf

Welcome, I spoke to Butler Performance and asked about the shim, turns out to be the way the Factory spaced the Torque Converter to Flexplate to leave, I believe to be 3/16 - 1/4" Gap that remains to couple the two together.

Then the 1/8" metal plate strengthens the Flexplates flexible hardened plate steel and sandwiches it between the Crankshaft @ the rear of the Engine The rest is here:


https://butlerperformance.com/n-1349...k-balance.html
Flexplate noise + Balancing info. I have recently replaced my Harmonic Balancer, Remanufactured my own TH 400 Trans. Over the last 2 years, Installed Remanufactured Heads and Replaced every moving wearable part inside this motor meaning from you I bought the Johnson lifters, HD Push Rods, HD Rocker arm studs and the 041 Cam. It had a dual chain Timing set. I have a new oil pump. I believe I need a Flexplate for this Automatic Trans.

When I rev up from 1000 rpm to 2000 rpm, I hear a ghost noise that sounds mechanical, after 2K the sound goes away under a load and when I rev. It up while stopped in park, it makes noise between 1k and 2k then past 2k the noise disappears and coming back down you hear the noise and at idle it's gone again. We pulled the Flexplate and we see that the holes for bolts to the Crankcase are out of round. Also, the thin and thick plates on both sides show the same ware patterns, out of round, I think they could be moving while sandwiched in between the Flexplate and the Torque Converter. By the way the Torque converter is new also, built when we built the Trans. I am interested in your HAY- 13-065 Flexplate, please advise. I have a 1967 Pontiac 428 ci HO Engine, how was that balanced from the Factory? Next, I bought a new Harmonic Balancer online and it came with the Hub, weight, spacer plate metal with holes, designed for this motor, Ames N585 Hub and counter weight- Cost $270. I used all the parts since I had paid for them- instead of using just their hub. "Will that, in itself cause a noise?". We pulled the Flexplate and there were no cracked welds or any issues other than I have "out of round holes for the bolts". You need to advise, please to whether or not my Engine is Internally balanced, for sure, from the Factory. It is my thought, from my research, that the 428 ci motor was indeed internally balanced. My Flexplate uses a spacer and a thin Shim on each side. P.S. There was first a ghost noise and that turned out to be the cracked Hub on the Harmonic Balancer, when replaced that noise disappeared. This new noise began after that change or was running simultaneously. This latest ghost noise is a knocking type, at first thought to be Ignition Timing. Timing is checked and is "OK", the noise/sound ranges from 1000 RPM to 2000 RPM and then goes away, under load when moving. Also, if I rev. the Motor up at a stop, it does the same thing, goes away under 1000 RPM. Just to paint the entire picture, I had an accident two years ago by riding over a root under an asphalt drive- way that was raised high enough to lift the Trans. The Trans. was rebuilt over the next two years by me and my roommate, successfully. The Torque Converter is a new Hughes, then the Harmonic Balancer and now the Flexplate is suspect. Sending photos:
https://butlerperformance.com/n-1349...k-balance.html Engine Balancing- Internal (neutral) vs. External (stock)
Assembly balancing is a very popular question. Balancing the crank is a method of weighing each part of an assembly and drilling the crank to remove or add weight so that assembly spins in a true rotation. This true rotation or balance makes the crank spin without any additional centrifugal forces that would cause vibrations and lead to bearing wear and possibly catastrophic engine failure.



Pontiac traditionally did a semi-internal balancing on the crank. The crank was not zero balanced but had to use the balancer and flexplate (auto trans) or flywheel (manual trans) with offset weighting to finish the assembly balance.

We no longer balance using this method. The cranks in our assemblies are zero balanced. This is also called neutral or internally balanced. This is based on bob weights of the parts used (rods, pistons, bearings, and rings. This method gives the truest balance and ensures the crank will spin true based on the exact weights of the assembly free of any external forces that could cause vibrations.

Most aftermarket cranks are factory weighted for use with aftermarket rods. These rods are much lighter than factory rods. This can cause a problem during the balancing process. The crank would need to have weight added to make the balance. This process means the crank is drilled for a heavy weight that is welded in place. This process can make the cost rise as heavy metal and labor would need to be added to the balancing costs. In many cases the cost is not far from that of a new set of rods. So, upgrading the 50-year-old rods is not much more money in the long run in most cases.



So which balance do I have?
That is not always easy to tell. If it is a factory original engine and has never been rebuilt it is externally factory balanced. If it has been rebuilt you would need to ask your builder what balance method was used.

What if I don't know the history of the engine?
The best way to tell is by looking at you're existing flexplate or flywheel. You can use the images below to identify if there is an additional weight added or material removed such as holes or cavities in a section of the part making it offset balanced.


Stock balance is also called externally balanced. This means it took an offset part on the outside/external to finish the balance. Butler balances the crankshafts without the need to finish the balance externally. This is called neutral or internally balanced.

Mikes Reply:

Butler Performance says that From the Factory, I should have an Externally Balanced Motor. They said in my case to look at the Flexplate for the 4 round 7/8" holes drilled through the outer area. They are present, there for; most likely no one has Internally balanced this Crank, Pistons and rods, as I once thought had happened, when the Pistons were modified in 1968 and the motor was stamped on the P.S. front Head. They simply moved the Pistons in the opposite direction/backward, some think it was a mistake and some say it was a race thing used in the old days. The number two piston remains in the correct orientation.

The Harmonic Balancer is a new Ames N585 Hub and counter weight- Cost $270.

Butler says that if a Motor was worked on by someone prior, who internally balanced the motor, I would have to speak to them.

I am going off the fact that the existing Flexplate is balanced to the Engine and has 7/8" holes drilled around the perimeter to prove it.

The Harmonic Balancer is set-up to be Neutral in weight, so the kit I added should not affect the Balance of things.

After speaking to Butler, I have decided to purchase the new Flexplate and the associated ARP Bolts that are used with it. My Flexplate is old, used and the inner bolt holes show egg shape and out of roundness. Better to be safe than sorry.

I intend on keeping the Thin Spacer and I will use Brake Quiet on it just in case that was my rattling noise experienced between 1000 and 2000 RPM. The thick 1/8" plate, we will use as well and I will use brake Quiet on it too, just in case. Eliminating any harmonics from the "out of round parts". This might work as well as it does on the back of brake pads. I have yet to find the shim or plate in the aftermarket, so if any of you know where I can buy those parts, I would rather replace them as well.

[steve25]

I am thinking that as suggested you should pull the motor because in terms of the noise your hearing and the fact that your flexplate is ok I now think that going once again by your description of the sound that you have a cracked windage tray .

All the 428 motors had a full length one which made them more prone to cracking.

At any rate as others have suggested it’s time to get in there and take a good look before you blow up a rare 428 motor.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by steve25

I am thinking that as suggested you should pull the motor because in terms of the noise you're hearing and the fact that your flexplate is ok I now think that going once again by your description of the sound that you have a cracked windage tray.

All the 428 motors had a full length one which made them more prone to cracking.

At any rate as others have suggested it’s time to get in there and take a good look before you blow up a rare 428 motor.

When we inspected the bottom end recently, we did not see any issue with the windage tray and before that we installed a new oil pump, it is too bad that we did not get to inspect the Rod orientation at that time, we learned after reassembly that there was an issue with the upper Pistons, after we removed the Heads. However, if this Flexplate does not fix this ghost noise, I will certainly address that and pull it and take another look at the Windage Tray and the Rod orientations. The Windage Tray is made of just the type of "tin metal- type sound" that would create harmonics in an Engine, especially due to its location, good thought and thank you for the input, Mike out.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

That is a flexplate, not a flywheel...

Didn't you drive the car after rebuilding the trans and didn't mention this new knocking noise? It started in the driveway while messing with timing when you mentioned a knocking noise... pinging is not knocking. If the flexplate was cracked you should have heard it on the first drive after the trans rebuild and cam timing changes. No?

The cam was already broken in when it was first started up after installed, I hope. There is no more breaking in to do to it.

As for your defense of using 100% ATF in the engine... ATF does NOT have ANY anti wear additives that engine oil does and less detergents, ever heard of zinc/phos. (ZDDP) ... bet the cam/lifters really loved pure ATF in the engine, regardless of how long it was run, cam/lifters are under full force of the valve springs at all times & need oil protection.

Maybe the knocking sound is now a rod or main bearing, or piston slap like cliff mentioned from 7 backwards pistons? Didn't you say the "ghost noise" was from back pressure caused by a dryer duct on the exhaust pipe that put pressure on the exhaust seats? Post a video of the engine running so members can hear the knocking noise.

On through the fog...

You stated:
Didn't you say the "ghost noise" was from back pressure caused by a dryer duct on the exhaust pipe that put pressure on the exhaust seats?

Mikes reply:

Originally, I thought that this procedure may have lifted the Valve seat bushings off their perspective seats. When we had the Heads removed, we found that the umbrella seals were off their seats. I am trying to remember, the uncut seats on this motor were the Exhaust seats, the Head Mechanic was supposed to cut them back, but changed his mind and used a tight-fitting umbrella seal that won't come off, when in service. It was also determined that the Factory originally cut the Intake Valve seats and they used a new black metal band strap type seat to hold better in place, over the Intake valve stem.

Later, it was determined as well that the Pipe over the Exhaust pipe, to lengthen the fume travel out of my Garage type Tent, was beneficial in letting us breath, but also amplified the ghost noise in the Engine, that existed at the time, so that we could hear it for the first time. Yes, the back pressure lifted the umbrella seals off their seats. Was that the noise? I doubt it now, especially after finding that the Harmonic Balancer was cracked and that this ghost noise that has yet to be fully determined (Flexplate) has been there in the background, running simultaneously the whole time.

Yes, we used the ZDDP in with the oil both when we broke in the "041" Cam and after. We used moly on the Cam lobes and bearing journals as well on break in only. We continue to use ZDDP in the oil on every oil change. With only about 7,000 actual miles that I personally have driving this Motor in this Vehicle. We should have changed the oil twice. However, with all the different problems that we have incurred over the last ten years with this project, we have replaced the filter and oil more times than I can remember, without looking back at the records.

We only used the Trans. Flush Trick once in the beginning, when I first started this secondhand project. Then now/recently as we only had a small amount of debris on top of the Lifter valley area. This leads me to believe that under all my circumstances, that if I could collect a small amount of debris as stated above and I completely flush my motor with two gallons of Trans. fluid. Add a new filter afterward. How could other flush scenarios work as well? Face it, using Amsoil in dirty oil to begin with and adding Trans. fluid into dirty oil, is just ridiculous. Besides Amsoil is using my trick when the DIY guys add Trans. fluid into their mix. So, no matter what you believe Tranny fluid is the real cleaner in the Amsoil mix. Remove the Tranny fluid and add just the Amsoil and what have you got? Why would they add Trans. fluid to their mix if it did not help?

When I drain the old oil first and then add 2 gal. of Trans. fluid to an Engine Block, run it and drain it, in half an hour of running time, the residual oil that sticks to all the residual surfaces eventually mixes with the new oil, in my case adding ZDDP. Also, the addition of Transmission fluid acts like you poured a pint of Marvel Mystery oil in the oil. What could be better for an Engine than that kind of love.

You said:
"Maybe the knocking sound is now a rod or main bearing, or piston slap."

Mikes reply:

#886 Cam

I don't think so, I drove a Ford six cyl. van, that my friend had me use to run an errand for him in. It had a Rod- knock in the lower end and as a matter of fact, it blew-up as I was driving it. Believe me, I know that sound. This is not the case in this motor, the lower end is the strongest part of this Motor.

I had this Motor up to 90 MPH with that # 886 (old TriPower Cam) installed that was worn out too. Between 70-90 MPH the secondaries and kickdown came on in full synchronicity with the Torque Converter and threw me back in my seat, until I reached 120 MPH and then moved slowly to 130 max.

STORY:

OfCourse, that is when I woke up and lost the cops, when I was running shine in the Carolinas, after I bumped my head on the steering Wheel when I went over a cliff...


P.S. I need to see what the "041" Cam can do, at the top end, so I can tell the story about this Cam, as I did with the # 886 Cam above. I will order the Flexplate tonight with the 6 ARP Bolts that fasten it to the Crankshaft, install it when it arrives and then once assembled, maybe the noise is gone. I won't discount the person mentioned that my Windage Tray may also be the culprit?

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

In all the years of owning and driving these vehicles had one flex plate crack. It was behind a stock 350/300hp engine in my 1970 Impala. At that time a daily driver. It started to make noise at idle speed, not so much when revved up. It eventually manifested into enough noise and an inspection of everything going on in that area was required. The crack was discovered, flex plate replaced, power restored and no more noise. I think WAY back then the part was less than $20 and a couple of hours on the lift at the hobby shop at the Military base I was stationed at to swap it out.....

I owned a 1969 Chevy Impala, 2 doors as my first Car. It had a 327 in it that I pulled and rebuilt. I was installing it into a 1967 Chevy van, with the flat windshield. Unfortunately, it got stolen before I could finish my first Vehicle project. This forced me into taking my first loan out to buy a 1979 left over Dodge B-200 work Van. I made $153/month payments for the next four years, sadly to say I did not change the oil as often as I should have. I wish I knew than what I knew now. I got my money's worth out of the van, I am just disgusted in myself that I didn't treat it better.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I owned a 1969 Chevy Impala, 2 doors as my first Car. It had a 327 in it that I pulled and rebuilt. I was installing it into a 1967 Chevy van, with the flat windshield. Unfortunately, it got stolen before I could finish my first Vehicle project. This forced me into taking my first loan out to buy a 1979 left over Dodge B-200 work Van. I made $153/month payments for the next four years, sadly to say I did not change the oil as often as I should have. I wish I knew than what I knew now. I got my money's worth out of the van, I am just disgusted in myself that I didn't treat it better.

cLIFF, i ORDERED THE fLEXPLATE FOR MY eNGINE BECAUSE i DID NOT LIKE THE ROUNDED OFF BOLT HOLES THAT WERE SOMEWHAT EGG SHAPED. i ALSO, ORDERED ALL NEW ARP. HARDWARE FOR THE JOB. Darn cap locks, been up all night, excuse me.

I thought while I wait for these parts to come in that I would ask you a question about the TH 400 That you helped me build, it works great and I want to know about the tolerances.

I pulled the data that I recorded from while I was into this TH 400.

Question is: I had .008" clearance @ the rear of the Case, measured using a micrometer and dial indicator. My research told me to have some .002" to .005" clearance in the "front more than the back" of the Trans. I loaded the rear output shaft using a piece of wood in between OfCourse, on a jack with the trans. on an Engine stand converted to a Trans. stand. This way, I isolated the front clearance from the rear clearance. The front clearance is .020" Total. As I said the rear is .008" and I was told to have: Plus .002 - .005" more in the front. I should be at (.010", .011", .012", .013") in the front.

Could this be the reason that I am forcing too much stress against the Crank Shaft and do you recommend I go back in and remove the front phenolic washer, behind the pump? I still have a variety of those phenolic washers to choose from, that will put me on to tighter tolerances in the front. Since this is my first Trans. build that would be the only possible thing that I could have done wrong to cause the Harmonic Balancer to Crack or to cause an issue with the Flexplate, due to my building the Trans. in the first place.

Other than that, the forum mentioned that the Windage tray could be cracked, however we did not notice any cracks the last time we pulled the oil pan, recently.

[78w72]

You are clearly missing the point about using pure ATF in an engine, I will explain it once more then leave you to your "theory" and opinon about it... the anti wear additives in ATF are extremely low, its more like a 0/20 or 5/20 viscosity. What little residual oil is left in the engine after draining does not protect the cam/lifters or other critical wear areas of the engine using pure ATF, it will cause wear to those areas and has LESS detergents than engine oil. That is based on facts, not personal opinion.

The oil wasnt all that "dirty", you said you changed the oil more times than you can remember on this engine... adding any type of flush to oil that isnt really "dirty" and would pass a UOA with flying colors is not ridiculous, its added when its time for an oil change.

Amsoil does NOT use ATF in their engine flush product, where are you coming up with that? Just like most all other engine flush products it is mainly a mix of strong detergents and other petroleum solvents like kerosene, naptha, and others like xylene/toluene.

Use & do what you want, just trying to help you understand what engine flushes are & how they are used and that pure ATF is not doing your engine any favors. Hope you figure out all your noises and can actually get the car to run right at a proper temp. 78w72 out.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

You are clearly missing the point about using pure ATF in an engine, I will explain it once more then leave you to your "theory" and opinion about it... the anti-wear additives in ATF are extremely low, it's more like a 0/20 or 5/20 viscosity. What little residual oil is left in the engine after draining does not protect the cam/lifters or other critical wear areas of the engine using pure ATF, it will cause wear to those areas and has LESS detergents than engine oil. That is based on facts, not personal opinion.

The oil wasn't all that "dirty", you said you changed the oil more times than you can remember on this engine... adding any type of flush to oil that isn't really "dirty" and would pass a UOA with flying colors is not ridiculous, its added when it's time for an oil change.

Amsoil does NOT use ATF in their engine flush product, where are you coming up with that? Just like most other engine flush products it is mainly a mix of strong detergents and other petroleum solvents like kerosene, naphtha, and others like xylene/toluene.

Use & do what you want, just trying to help you understand what engine flushes are & how they are used and that pure ATF is not doing your engine any favors. Hope you figure out all your noises and can actually get the car to run right at a proper temp. 78w72 out.

They had some of those chemicals in a product used to remove hot glue off new Carpet when we were installing rugs for a living. I sold and installed Carpet, vinyl and VCT Tile for a living for 15 years. I have seen those chems. in other cleaners that claim to remove- all, and they do clean all without hurting the paint.

DIY people add the Trans. fluid to Amsoil to mix with dirty Motor oil according to the directions. It is the Trans. fluid that does the work, JMO.

You said:
"Hope you figure out all your noises and can actually get the car to run right at a proper temp." 78w72 out.

Mikes reply: The Temp. issue was solved with the replacement of the radiator cap. We're certainly trying, ordered the Flexplate, I stand corrected on that one, the flywheel is for standard shift. Also, I ordered the ARP hardware for the project. I want to make sure that there is no movement between the shim and spacer where they live and I am going to use some brake quiet on the back of both the shim and spacer. Plus, we will use lock-Tite on the Bolts. After this, whether it works or not has yet to be determined. Someone mentioned the Windage Tray that it could make the tinny sound a crack could cause. It is very hard for me to discribe the different noises that this car has been making. I will record a video as you asked, if this sound persists after the Flexplate is replaced.

[tom s]

With a thread about a cam who really gives a damn about any kind engine flush?Start a new thread.Tom

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by tom s

With a thread about a cam who really gives a damn about any kind engine flush? Start a new thread. Tom.

How are your Intakes selling?

[MatthewKlein]

[QUOTE=TRADERMIKE 2012;6468146]

Originally Posted by tom s

With a thread about a cam who really gives a damn about any kind engine flush? Start a new thread. Tom. /QUOTE]

How are your Intakes selling?

I am really truly astonished the knowledgeable forum members continue to participate in your trainwreck. It's a tribute to their passion for these old Pontiacs.

Why are you here soliciting help if you already know how to get this car running and driving properly?

[JSchmitz]

[QUOTE=MatthewKlein;6468202]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I am really truly astonished the knowledgeable forum members continue to participate in your trainwreck. It's a tribute to their passion for these old Pontiacs.

Why are you here soliciting help if you already know how to get this car running and driving properly?

X2

And being hyper-defensive on top of it. Someone with his knowledge/skill base should be monumentally humble.

I must say that I'm amazed that he rebuilt a transmission that apparently works!

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

[QUOTE=MatthewKlein;6468202]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I am truly astonished that the knowledgeable forum members continue to participate in your trainwreck. It's a tribute to their passion for these old Pontiacs.

Why are you here soliciting help if you already know how to get this car running and driving properly?

If I knew everything, I would not be asking the Forum anything and I am experimenting as I learn, what is wrong with that? Have you anything to add about my current situation at hand that may solve my problems today? Rebuilding this Engine is not going to happen until this Vehicle is upside-down with the tires toward the sky. I know that there is life in the bottom end yet to use, if you have read the entire post, would you see that?

My Father taught me that a smart man does not know everything, he only knows how to find the answer and that is why I am here. Sorry but all of you can't be right all the time, I will pick and choose what is best for this project in a scientific manner. I simply must be allowed to grow and make mistakes when they happen, although my method works in the long run or I would not be where I am today. I am more knowledgeable than I was 10 years ago and this Vehicle is one of the best in the world, can you argue that, for a mostly stock build.