[yellow1098]

So I am looking for the simplest brake upgrade I can do on my TA that currently has stock rotors and calipers with hawk pads on the front and drums in the rear. Maybe just upgrade rear to cheap disks? And better stock replacement rotors and calipers? I was trying to avoid the spindles and full thousand dollar vette upgrade or searching for junk yard parts for the rear. What would you guys suggest?

I also have a new stock booster and MC

Definitely need to upgrade with 650 Hp

[78w72]

I run hawk HPS pads on stock calipers and powerstop vented rotors up front and stock drums/shoes in rear. Car is 500+ hp and does low 11s at 121-123mph, car stops excellent, better than my 81 T/A with 4wheel discs. I want to upgrade some day but so far dont feel the need with how well it stops, the hawk pads are excellent.

There is a C4 or C5 vette brake upgrade as well as 3rd gen F body 1LE that is supposed to be very simple & low price for new rotors calipers etc. Someone just mentioned the vette parts on another thread but I cant find it. Sounds like the best option to get bigger/better brakes on these cars.

There is also a rear drum upgrade to bigger drums and performance shoes that is supposed to help a lot, cheaper & lighter than an aftermarket disc set up from what Ive read.

[JLMounce]

What is the brake system not doing now that you need it to do? Better braking performance is not always solely in the brakes themselves.

Is it stopping distances you are after, repeatability? Is there something about the feel the brakes are giving you that you want to change?

[steve25]

You would be very surprised at the improvement stainless steel brake hoses can make all on there own when your leaning into the brakes hard!

Are you needs more towards quicker stoping from higher speeds from a 1/4 mile run, or from faster highway driving?

If for drag racing keep in mind the typical narrow front tires are easy to lock up even with a stock disc brake set up if it’s functioning normal.

If highway don’t forget the need for higher speed rated tires can be just as important to safety as having better braking availability.

[RocktimusPryme]

I switched from stock type pads to Hawk HPS 5.0 pads in the front of my 67 and felt no difference. I also felt no difference when I went from factory drums to factory-style discs in the back. So I dont know if there is going to be any cheap simple swap that is going to get you a noticeable seat of the pants feel difference. This might be a go big on brakes, or live with what you have and spend money elsewhere case.

I will say in my case, I DID NOT swap the master cylinder from the Front Disc/Rear drum Corvette style cylinder that came with my front brake kit when I changed the rears to disc. I only swapped the proportioning valve. So Ive long wondered if that would make a difference in my case.

Not trying to be a wet blanket, but I did pretty much exaclty what you are proposing and didnt really feel any difference. I asked around about wilwood calipers and was told it was basically a cosmetic upgrade only unless you went larger on rotor.

[yellow1098]

Those all sound like great info and suggestions……right now most of the time it stops just fine but if I’m ripping on it a good bit and on the brakes hard a lot I feel like I get a good bit of brake fade and they start to get much less bite….maybe it’s a lack of vacuum problem with my big cam. Maybe the hawk pads if had after about 5 years are just shot now. I am in single digit vacuum at WOT

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by yellow1098

Those all sound like great info and suggestions……right now most of the time it stops just fine but if I’m ripping on it a good bit and on the brakes hard a lot I feel like I get a good bit of brake fade and they start to get much less bite….maybe it’s a lack of vacuum problem with my big cam. Maybe the hawk pads if had after about 5 years are just shot now. I am in single digit vacuum at WOT

Okay, so based on this, you're after a bit more repeatability.

Going to a disc setup in the rear will help some, but not as much as you likely need. These cars do most of their braking from the front.

A rear disc upgrade would be on my list here for sure.

The next thing you need to do is be able to sink more heat, or shed heat from the rotors quicker. You'll also be combating moving that heat from the rotors and brake pads, to the calipers and then the fluid. This may also be where some of the fade is coming from.

If you are running 15" wheels and can't or won't go to a larger wheel, you're stuck with the 11" rotors. As a result you're not able to sink any more heat into the rotor itself.

That leaves the pads. If you have a Hawk HP currently, try the HPS. It'll cope with a little bit more heat. You "can" start looking at more auto-x oriented pads, but there are major trade-offs when you start trying to fix this heat issue with brake pads alone. As the rated temperatures of the pads go up, their effectiveness below that temperature degrades. For a car that is driven on the street, this can be a pretty big problem. These types of pads are also very noisy and dust quite a bit.

If you have a way to get air to the back side of the rotor at the hub, this will help shed heat faster. If the backing plates are in place, remove them and run aircraft ducting to the rotor. Not on the back of the rotor face, but directed towards the backside of the rotor hub, so that the fresh air runs evenly through the vanes of the rotor and cools it evenly.

Now you need to keep heat from getting to the brake fluid and you also need a brake fluid that can withstand more heat.

The factory GM D52 calipers have a lot of pad area and a TON of caliper piston area. They'll stop a freight train...once. The fact that they are cast from iron and use steel pistons means they transfer a lot of heat from the brake pad, into the caliper and then into the fluid.

I would change the fluid first and test the results. I've always liked the ATE brake fluid, but there's a lot of choices out there. ATE, Motul, Wilwood etc. Pick something in the DOT 4 or DOT 5.1 (No DOT 5) that is rated for higher temperatures.

If this helps your situation, then great, you may be able to get by with that. If you're still finding that your setup is fading too much, too rapidly, my next recommendation is to replace your GM D52 calipers (and whatever comes with the rear disc upgrade) with the Wilwood replacements. The Wilwood's are forged aluminum and use stainless steel pistons. They will resist taking on heat from the brake pads and moving it into the fluid. What heat they do sink, they'll shed faster.

If you already have a 17"+ wheel and tire setup, or are willing to go in that direction, there's lots more you can do to help with repeatability by plus sizing your rotors.

[yellow1098]

That is some awesome information thank you! I am running the 17 inch snowflakes so what upgraded rotors and calipers would you use with the hawk HPS pads? And as far as the rear are there kits or would I piece it together? When I do it I will upgrade the fluid also!

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by yellow1098

That is some awesome information thank you! I am running the 17 inch snowflakes so what upgraded rotors and calipers would you use with the hawk HPS pads? And as far as the rear are there kits or would I piece it together? When I do it I will upgrade the fluid also!

If you have the budget for it, I'd go to a 13" front and up to a 13" rear rotor with new calipers. Wilwood and Baer are the typical choices. You can do Corvette stuff, but you can run into caliper clearance issues with that.

If you opt for either a Wilwood or Baer kit, you want to go with their big calipers. Not the Dynalite in the Wilwood line or the S4 in the Baer line. The pad volume is too small. Those calipers are more street rod stuff. In the Wilwood you want the Forged Narrow Superlight on the front. In the Baer line you want at least the T4 caliper, but the 6P would be preferable. In the rear you can do the dynalite, or S4 calipers since these aren't working nearly as much as the fronts.

Baer does still offer their classic series brakes as well that use the PBR style calipers you find on early 2000's Mustangs. This may be a more budget friendly approach.

There may also be people that offer a bracket and rotor kit for 12" rotors that utilize the common GM calipers. I haven't really seen any of these in a while though. You might reach out to scarebird here and see if he knows of anything along those lines.

You can also check to see if the C5/C6 stuff will work with your wheels by printing out a template at www.kore3.com. If your wheels will clear the calipers, give Tobin at Kore3 a call and discuss your needs. He's a super nice and super knowledgeable gentleman and his product is top notch. Plus then you have the ability to get off the shelf parts when you need them.

[jerry455]

I had a set of B body knuckles and put on a set of 12" 1LE rotors from 3rd gen F car to replace the stock 11" rotors. I also upgraded to 11" drums in the rear, stock Firebird were 9 1/2". The set up used to be on my 1977 Can Am. The rear was stock on that car. 1973-1977 A car had 11" drums. These were put on my 1976 Firebird. I pressed out the metric studs on the 1LE rotors and put in standard studs to match the rear. I have been happy with the results so far.

[w72]

I can confirm that Kore3 can supply you with a C6 setup that clears the 17x9 snowflakes. Requires minor mods to the knuckle. Not exactly a budget option, but you get billet hubs, upgraded bearings, steel brake hoses, and you'll enjoy an amazing selection of pad compounds and inexpensive 12.8" rotors.

[w72]

Hard to see in this image, but the C6 caliper has enough clearance without using spacers.

[chuckies76ta]

Originally Posted by yellow1098

So I am looking for the simplest brake upgrade I can do on my TA that currently has stock rotors and calipers with hawk pads on the front and drums in the rear. Maybe just upgrade rear to cheap disks? And better stock replacement rotors and calipers? I was trying to avoid the spindles and full thousand dollar vette upgrade or searching for junk yard parts for the rear. What would you guys suggest?

I also have a new stock booster and MC

Definitely need to upgrade with 650 Hp

[QUOTE=Those all sound like great info and suggestions……right now most of the time it stops just fine but if I’m ripping on it a good bit and on the brakes hard a lot I feel like I get a good bit of brake fade and they start to get much less bite….maybe it’s a lack of vacuum problem with my big cam. Maybe the hawk pads if had after about 5 years are just shot now. I am in single digit vacuum at WOT[/QUOTE]


With this new Booster have you checked your vacuum. I'd be curious to know what the engine vacuum is at idle? Sounds to me like you don't have enough vacuum to run this booster which is your first problem.

[VCho455]

With single digit manifold vacuum it's time for a new plan.
Electric vacuum pump with your existing master cylinder or,
Manual brake master cylinder or
A Hydro-boost system.

I am of the opinion that you have more than one problem contributing to your lack luster brakes.

Willwood D52 dual cylinder calipers will make a difference over the factory D52 calipers.

There is a lot of information here.

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...clamping+force

[Skip Fix]

I have a 13" PBR style Baer I am not going to use if you want to go that way. I think I tried them ion the 17" snowflakes but I can this weekend. I know they did not fit 16x* GTA wheels due to caliper not rotors, never used.

[Scarebird]

Originally Posted by chuckies76ta

With this new Booster have you checked your vacuum. I'd be curious to know what the engine vacuum is at idle? Sounds to me like you don't have enough vacuum to run this booster which is your first problem.

Originally Posted by VCho455

With single digit manifold vacuum it's time for a new plan.
Electric vacuum pump with your existing master cylinder or,
Manual brake master cylinder or
A Hydro-boost system.

I am of the opinion that you have more than one problem contributing to your lack luster brakes.

The 77 booster is not up to single digit vacuum. The later dual 9" will go down to 9" easily - maybe lower. A vacuumpump may solve the issue - I ran a manual master on mine and it worked excellent.

[jhein]

Originally Posted by yellow1098

I am in single digit vacuum at WOT

What is it at idle?

[Skip Fix]

My 78 with an 81 dual diaphragm booster was fine down to about 9" then got a little iffy when I had a bid solid can and a single plane intake,

[Tarl]

Another vote for b-body spindles and 1LE brakes, b-body calipers (say 1984 caprice with 12" brakes) along with 9C1 pads (from 1996 caprice with police package) along with upgrading the MC and Booster and 11" drums. I had them on my 66 lemans and while the b-body spindles caused other issues (shouldn't for your car), it stopped on a dime.