#1  
Old 09-13-2021, 03:07 PM
pbrunelle62 pbrunelle62 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Toronto, Canada area
Posts: 6
Default EFI Recommendation for 400

Hi, Im looking for EFI recommendations for my Pontiac 400 build. I want timing control and like the integrated ignition options available from Holley, but interested in forum experience. Some specs on my engine setup to establish right EFI spec:

*400 bored +.030 to 406
*10.35:1 compression
*TRW forged pistons +.080 dome (net chamber volume 6cc milled)
*Bullett Cam - Grind#280/292; Duration at 050”-228/234;Gross Valve Lift-.510”; Installed with +4*Advance
*Kaufman Racing heads - 85cc chambers - 2.11/1.66” Valves
*PRW Roller Rockers - 1.52” ratio
*Edelbrock Performer RPM intake
*RA manifolds and Pypes 2.5” X-pipe exhaust with Turbo Flow mufflers

Thanks!
70’ Formula 400

  #2  
Old 09-13-2021, 03:26 PM
takid455 takid455 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 1,003
Send a message via AIM to takid455
Default

I have full engine management system for Pontiacs. Runs any ecu. Currently I run the Gen 3 LS ecu.
Works great.


Here's a video of it in operation

https://youtu.be/vhTHRymPSlM

Pm or use contacts in video for more info

Sent from my LG-G710 using Tapatalk

__________________
1972 HO Trans Am auto White/white
1974 SD Trans Am 4 spd, no a/c dk blue/ white & blue
1978 Trans am gold/ black ,T56, t tops, EFI 474,
Build: http://www.pro-touring.com/showthrea...1978+g+machine
1999 30th Trans Am 6 spd, T top
The Following User Says Thank You to takid455 For This Useful Post:
  #3  
Old 09-13-2021, 06:27 PM
max 93 max 93 is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Big bend, WI
Posts: 533
Default

So far I am happy with my Edelbrock Pro Flo 4.

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to max 93 For This Useful Post:
  #4  
Old 09-13-2021, 08:10 PM
Formula8's Avatar
Formula8 Formula8 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,308
Default

I only have experience with Holley and here is my advice for anyone contemplating an update to fuel injection on their old muscle car:

1) If you go with a Holley FI system, secure the full instructions off the Holley website rather than the Quick Start guide that comes with the Sniper. I read the entire 75 some pages several times.
2) Get a dry erase board and plan out your wiring.
3) Get the car as close as possible to the way a new, fuel injected car would be setup. Clean output modern alternator (not some '60s-'80s era SI model). Computer connected to directly to the battery and switched on by a relay isolating the Sniper from the rest of the electrical system. Put some care into routing any input sensor (coolant, WBO2 & handheld) wires around other wires. I added ferrite beads and RFI tape around these wires for good measure.
4) No modern car runs an external fuel pump and there is a reason.
5) Your 40-50 year old wiring harness is probably not going to cut it. Be prepared to do a lot of rethinking of your electrical. Holley's marketing makes it sound like a four wire hook up and you're good to go. While that may work for some, now is probably the time to do some updating to avoid future headaches. Most of these retrofit systems have basically zero diagnostic ability and you are your own code reader.....except with no codes to read.
6) Whatever problem you have with your existing engine is not going to be fixed by fuel injection. The problem will likely be worse and you now will be chasing that in addition to a fuel injection system that isn't able to work properly due to the underlying issue. Run a compression or leakdown test, put new plugs, wires, cap and rotor in it and set the timing correctly before starting your Sniper install.

__________________
71 Formula 433, Splayed cap 400 block, 4" stroke Scat forged crank, 6.8 Eagle rods, custom Autotec pistons. SD 295 KRE D ports, Old faithful hybrid roller, Torker II, Holley Sniper Stealth, Tribal Tubes, TKO 600, 3.73 Eaton posi.
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Formula8 For This Useful Post:
  #5  
Old 09-14-2021, 07:17 AM
67Fbird's Avatar
67Fbird 67Fbird is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: GA
Posts: 465
Default

^^^ very well put!

There are many ways to "inject" a car.
1st. BUDGET be honest about how much you are going to put into it.
2nd Multiply your BEST $$$$ estimate by 1.5 (thats what it will take to actually do it)
3rd There are several "self tuning" types out there that work wonderful but each has its own pros-cons.....so RESEARCH

The Following User Says Thank You to 67Fbird For This Useful Post:
  #6  
Old 09-14-2021, 08:39 AM
76TA462 76TA462 is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 349
Default

Having gone through the challenge of adding EFI I couldn't agree more with the above points. I used the Sniper, but the gremlins were old car issues not the unit (they all seem to be good - and should be at this point in the development game). Gremlin chasing was the game for me, and Formula8's list is bang on. Just for added notes - I didn't have to change out the alternator (using an OEM style Power Master) but ferrite beads would have been next on my list. Never thought about the RFI tape so swapping to the Moroso Blue Max Spiral Core Spark Plug Wire Set did the job there. It has been running flawless since, but before the gremlins were solved the car would randomly die out with all sorts of error messages on the hand-held. I might add one of those guardian bells, I don't have RFI problems with my Twin Cam :>)

The Following User Says Thank You to 76TA462 For This Useful Post:
  #7  
Old 09-14-2021, 09:49 AM
lfdsteve's Avatar
lfdsteve lfdsteve is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 922
Default

I put a “Powerjection” unit from retrotek (sp?) on my 462.
Had to replace every sensor and sending unit except the ecu because what they included in the kit was garbage but it runs pretty good now that it’s been completely re engineered. I heard rumors these clowns are selling yet again under a new name (v3) because they are in hiding from their original garbage.( maybe fitech??)
Using a stealth in tank pump and a return system.
Would like to take it all off and go to a system that adjusts timing and such but that’s for another time as life is currently in the way.
If you get the right system, and keep the proper perspective, it’s a great alternative to the carb for the weekend hotrod crowd.
My 2 cents.

__________________
462 Yc Block, zero deck
Probe forged pistons 6cc relief, Scatt Hbeam rods floating pins aprox. 10.21 CR
Comp Hyd-roller cam,roller lifters,springs ect.
236 244@ .050 108 LSA .511 lift, duration 289,297 @.oo6
Edelbrock Aluminum 87cc round port heads Larger valves ,ported polished and cut
Powerjection3,T2 manifold, Try-y’s
Flowcooler water pump.
71 formula with TKO600,hydraulic clutch 3.42 posi and 26 inch tire.
17x9 YO Honeycombs with Nitto 555's
The Following User Says Thank You to lfdsteve For This Useful Post:
  #8  
Old 09-14-2021, 10:16 AM
GTO JONES's Avatar
GTO JONES GTO JONES is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: PRESCOTT VALLEY, ARIZONA
Posts: 402
Default

We did a holley super sniper 8 injector on my 571 cu pontiac and my son's 454 chevelle, good units.

The Following User Says Thank You to GTO JONES For This Useful Post:
  #9  
Old 09-14-2021, 11:29 AM
Formula8's Avatar
Formula8 Formula8 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,308
Default

Forgot to add, pin-out and remove any wires from the injection system that you are not going to use. Do not just coil them behind the engine or whatever and call it done.

__________________
71 Formula 433, Splayed cap 400 block, 4" stroke Scat forged crank, 6.8 Eagle rods, custom Autotec pistons. SD 295 KRE D ports, Old faithful hybrid roller, Torker II, Holley Sniper Stealth, Tribal Tubes, TKO 600, 3.73 Eaton posi.
The Following User Says Thank You to Formula8 For This Useful Post:
  #10  
Old 09-14-2021, 11:39 AM
GTO JONES's Avatar
GTO JONES GTO JONES is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: PRESCOTT VALLEY, ARIZONA
Posts: 402
Default

I use them all lol.

  #11  
Old 09-14-2021, 02:07 PM
Brianbigoats Brianbigoats is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 22
Default

I have a Sniper Stealth and timing control that is going on my 461

  #12  
Old 09-14-2021, 03:02 PM
grivera's Avatar
grivera grivera is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Just south of Baltimore
Posts: 4,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO JONES View Post
I use them all lol.
Wow - on my regular Sniper I removed l but two wires from the 10-pin connector

__________________
Will Rivera

'69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears
'64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears
'69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project
  #13  
Old 09-14-2021, 03:31 PM
ID67goat's Avatar
ID67goat ID67goat is online now
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 411
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by takid455 View Post
I have full engine management system for Pontiacs. Runs any ecu. Currently I run the Gen 3 LS ecu.
Works great.


Here's a video of it in operation

https://youtu.be/vhTHRymPSlM

Pm or use contacts in video for more info

Sent from my LG-G710 using Tapatalk
Wow, nice clean car. Do you have more details on your setup?

  #14  
Old 09-14-2021, 03:34 PM
Lee's Avatar
Lee Lee is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Crosby, TX (East of Houston)/Texas/USA
Posts: 2,054
Default

FAST XFI Sportsman on my '73. It uses the same throttle body as the EZ 2.0 system, but the ECU is different - fully tunable, fuel & spark. I've installed EZ 2.0's on a few cars and they have all ran great, but I wanted to be able to fine-tune my motor to a higher degree. I also wanted a deeper understanding of how the various tables work. SO much nicer, being able to change fuel and spark characteristics from a laptop, rather than bent over a hot engine!

My LS tuning buddy sat in on my recent chassis dyno testing. He thought it was funny that I was only hitting about 46% duty-cycle on the injectors. I was putting ~315rwhp at that point, so that means the throttle body should support 600+rwhp.

__________________
'73 T/A (clone). Low budget stock headed 8.3:1 455, 222/242 116lsa .443/.435 cam. FAST Sportsman EFI, 315rwhp/385rwtq on 87 octane. 13.12 @103.2, 1.91 60'.

'67 Firebird [sold], ; 11.27 @ 119.61, 7.167 @ 96.07, with UD 280/280 (108LSA/ 109 ICL)solid cam. [1.537, 7.233 @93.61, 11.46 @ 115.4 w/ old UD 288/296 108 hydraulic cam] Feb '05 HPP, home-ported "16" D-ports, dished pistons (pump gas only), 3.42 gears, 275/60 DR's, 750DP, T2, full exhaust

My webpage http://lnlpd.com/home
  #15  
Old 09-14-2021, 03:35 PM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,794
Default

Yep, Left them all in, and use most all of them. Only wires not used currently are for timing control, and they are in the harness ready to be used should we choose to lock out the MSD and switch to electronic control.

No big deal, they are in the bundle anyway and can't be seen. It's not like they are coiled up behind the engine somewhere.

Never did the modern alternators on either car, just kept the stock stuff with external voltage regulators, never wrapped any wires in RFI protection stuff. Just ran the harness neatly with good connections and good grounds, good plug wires on the cars etc..... Never a single RFI issue with either car. Both EFI units have run perfectly for the last year since install. I think cars that have problems in this area probably already had issues and the owner just wasn't aware. EFI will bring out those issues and magnify them 10 fold.

I will say a good fuel system is a must. Both cars already had big in tank fuel pumps and 1/2" line to and from already in place when running carbs, so the EFI switch was pretty easy with a fuel system already in place to support it.

I'm not a fan of external pump setups or reservoir tanks or any of that. Cheap way to get up and running but not a good long term solution.

Which EFI direction you decide to go is based a lot on which intake manifold you have, whether you want to change it, and how much you want to spend. Throttle body EFI's are hugely popular, I see 10 of those for every multiport setup. I like the multiport stuff but you'll get more involved with the swap and it changes the appearance a bit. Just depends on what you want.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE
  #16  
Old 09-14-2021, 03:45 PM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,794
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee View Post
FAST XFI Sportsman on my '73. It uses the same throttle body as the EZ 2.0 system, but the ECU is different - fully tunable, fuel & spark. I've installed EZ 2.0's on a few cars and they have all ran great, but I wanted to be able to fine-tune my motor to a higher degree. I also wanted a deeper understanding of how the various tables work. SO much nicer, being able to change fuel and spark characteristics from a laptop, rather than bent over a hot engine!
I've enjoyed this part of it as well. We are the type with the desire to fine tune everything. The Snipers do the same if one bothers to hook up the laptop and dig into all the tuning features. Most let it self tune and never get farther than the touch screen but there is so much more to be had with a laptop. The datalog is also a sweet feature. Can't say enough how nice it is to play that back and see what's going on during a run, and tweak. Very much like my LS tuning days.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE

Last edited by Formulajones; 09-14-2021 at 03:55 PM.
The Following User Says Thank You to Formulajones For This Useful Post:
  #17  
Old 09-14-2021, 06:08 PM
JLMounce JLMounce is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Greeley, Colorado
Posts: 3,679
Send a message via AIM to JLMounce
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formula8 View Post
5) Your 40-50 year old wiring harness is probably not going to cut it. Be prepared to do a lot of rethinking of your electrical. Holley's marketing makes it sound like a four wire hook up and you're good to go. While that may work for some, now is probably the time to do some updating to avoid future headaches. Most of these retrofit systems have basically zero diagnostic ability and you are your own code reader.....except with no codes to read.
6) Whatever problem you have with your existing engine is not going to be fixed by fuel injection. The problem will likely be worse and you now will be chasing that in addition to a fuel injection system that isn't able to work properly due to the underlying issue. Run a compression or leakdown test, put new plugs, wires, cap and rotor in it and set the timing correctly before starting your Sniper install.
Quoted and bolded because people should read it again.

I've had my FiTech in service for about 25,000 miles now. The FiTech on my wife's chevelle has been in service about 8000 miles. I've spent time on FiTech and Sniper boards and the vast majority of problems people complain about with those 2 systems specifically come down to two things.

1. A car that had problems to begin with that were masked by the carburetor
2. A piss-poor installation, poor attention to detail, rats nests of wiring and half assed "save-a-buck" fuel systems.

EMI issues with these systems for the most part don't start to crop up until you start working with the timing control features. You have signal wires that are necessarily very close to coils, plug wires and other power wires. This is where planning your wiring comes into play.

Power wires should never run parallel to signal wires. If they have to cross, they should do so at a 90 degree angle. The car needs all of it's grounds. Battery to block, block to body, body to chassis. Although the units ground the ECU to the throttle body internally, it's typically a good idea to ground the throttle body to the chassis as well.

Neither the Sniper of FiTech with it's onboard ECU provides the lengths of harness necessary to do a truly clean install without looming power and signal wires together. The vehicle side of the harness specifically, you should plan on extending the wires as needed. A good plan of action is to run signal wires on one side of the engine bay and power wires on the other.

Did I mention grounds?

__________________
-Jason
1969 Pontiac Firebird
  #18  
Old 09-14-2021, 06:47 PM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,794
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLMounce View Post
Neither the Sniper of FiTech with it's onboard ECU provides the lengths of harness necessary to do a truly clean install without looming power and signal wires together. The vehicle side of the harness specifically, you should plan on extending the wires as needed. A good plan of action is to run signal wires on one side of the engine bay and power wires on the other.

Did I mention grounds?
That's how I did it. Basically the power wires exit the unit towards the passenger side of the firewall and run towards the battery on that side of the car, hidden in the inner fender.

The signal wires, like the 02, the cable for the touch screen, the temp and oil pressure sensors, as well as the fuel pressure sensor sending info back to the unit all exit towards the driver side firewall and pretty much stay on that side of the engine comparment.

Pretty simple really.

Unfortunately it all comes out of the back of the unit right at the distributor on the engine, but there is nothing you can do about that other than try to split it and keep some distance as much as possible. Hasn't seemed to matter on either car though.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE
  #19  
Old 09-14-2021, 07:49 PM
Scott65's Avatar
Scott65 Scott65 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 1,991
Default

All the comments about having a rock solid foundation as a starting point are dead on. Here's a link to a very good book that explains all this in good detail along with answering the "why".

https://www.amazon.com/Performance-F...52630633&psc=1

And it covers many aspects of efi. I read it cover to cover several times before beginning my stand alone ecu project, which I detailed in a thread here in the street section of the forum. Whatever system you end up using, follow the advice about solid fundamentals.

__________________
'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31

Last edited by Scott65; 09-14-2021 at 07:49 PM. Reason: Addition
The Following User Says Thank You to Scott65 For This Useful Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:50 PM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017